[barsikb]

Reading TOD chapter in "25 Ways to Compete in the Bidding" (Barbara Seagram, Marc Smith).

1. Authors suggest using TOD with opening bid values including distribution. Is it really reasonable to do TOD without 12HCP very often? (not talking about balancing Dbl now)

2. I am used to responding by bidding 1NT with 6 HCP only (probably because I trust my doubling partner to have at least 12HCP). How bad is that?
They say 8-10. (with a stopper in opps' suit, of course)

3. Authors recommend jumping to game in response to partner's TOD with opening values and a 5-card major. What if partner had 6-card suit in another major, shortness in my major and was too strong to overcall (not much chance, I know)?

4. I am used to understand the second Dbl in this bidding sequence: 1♣ - Dbl - 1♥ - Dbl as showing 4-card ♠ suit (bidding ♠ now would show five of them) but this book says this double would show positive values and having ♥ (at least four of them). Really confused now.

Would appreciate your thoughts and comments

[Antrax]

The fourth issue is easy to understand: the first double promised some support for all three suits. If fourth hand has spades, he can just bid spades. There is no reason for fourth hand double to tell the original doubler "well, I can support some of the suits I know you can support". So, it makes sense for this double to be penalty-ish - "I have some hearts, and so should you". The main reason, I believe, is that otherwise it's very easy for third hand to bluff us out of our best suit, by bidding his shorter suit and then running away to 2♣ when doubled.

[helene_t]

6-9 is traditional and 8-10 more modern, reflecting a more aggressive doubling style.
Jumping to game with a 5-card suit is a bit crude. You can bit opps suit first to give partner the chance to show something unusual .
As for advancer's double, see Antrax post. But it is not only to unmask a psyche. It also can be helpful for partner to let him know we have some values. He might be able to bid 3nt with a stop in opener suit.

[han]

For what it is worth many good pairs play the double in 4 as takeout.

[fromageGB]

4. Perhaps your confusion is because in the similar sequence 1♥ X 2♥ X, this responsive double does not show hearts, but shows a better minor than spades, but can play in spades if partner wants. Over a minor bid and support, the responsive double would show both equal majors, typically 44xx.

However, I also play your given sequence as takeout, with equal liking for both suits. I would bid 1NT with hearts.

[Vampyr]

fromageGB, on 2013-February-23, 12:19, said:

However, I also play your given sequence as takeout, with equal liking for both suits. I would bid 1NT with hearts.

How do you find a heart game if you have one?

[fromageGB]

Vampyr, on 2013-February-23, 15:50, said:

How do you find a heart game if you have one?

An easy answer : I wouldn't. This is probably why the recommended methods have changed, if they have. However, 1NT/2NT shows good heart stops, and it is possible partner with good hearts in a good hand will bid 2♥/3♥ to suggest hearts as an alternative contract.

[helene_t]

fromageGB, on 2013-February-23, 12:19, said:

I would bid 1NT with hearts.

Don't you need a club stopper for bidding nt?

[fromageGB]

helene_t, on 2013-February-23, 16:43, said:

Don't you need a club stopper for bidding nt?

I suppose this depends on your agreements. Our simple one is that a NT bid in competition shows stop(s) in the suit bid on your right, not the left. If you had KJxx of the suit on your left, a couple of leads through and it is no stop at all. KJxx of the suit on the right is much better.

In this particular sequence as partner is expected to be short in the opening suit and to have something himself in the suit on your right, there is a strong argument that our agreement should not apply, and that 1NT should show something of the suit on your left, not the right. But then, with everything on the wrong side for you, it is probably not a good bid. You are going to get a heart lead through partner, and clubs through you.

Sometimes partner doubles with something in opener's suit and can stand the NT, or raise, or just accepts that there is no fit in the other suits so passes as nowhere better to go.

[barsikb]

Antrax, on 2013-February-23, 09:21, said:

The fourth issue is easy to understand: the first double promised some support for all three suits. If fourth hand has spades, he can just bid spades. There is no reason for fourth hand double to tell the original doubler "well, I can support some of the suits I know you can support". So, it makes sense for this double to be penalty-ish - "I have some hearts, and so should you". The main reason, I believe, is that otherwise it's very easy for third hand to bluff us out of our best suit, by bidding his shorter suit and then running away to 2♣ when doubled.

I really like to show if there are four spades or five so was pretty comfortable with free-bidding five and doubling with four. I guess this is supposed to give me problem with other types of hands?

[barsikb]

helene_t, on 2013-February-23, 10:16, said:

6-9 is traditional and 8-10 more modern, reflecting a more aggressive doubling style.
Jumping to game with a 5-card suit is a bit crude. You can bit opps suit first to give partner the chance to show something unusual .
As for advancer's double, see Antrax post. But it is not only to unmask a psyche. It also can be helpful for partner to let him know we have some values. He might be able to bid 3nt with a stop in opener suit.

That is clear to me know re strength.

For advancer's double the way you to explained what are requirements then? About how many HCP, ♥?

[wyman]

barsikb, on 2013-February-24, 06:19, said:

I really like to show if there are four spades or five so was pretty comfortable with free-bidding five and doubling with four. I guess this is supposed to give me problem with other types of hands?

With a game going hand & only 3 spades, partner will cuebid next, so it's ok to bid the same (1s or 2s) with 4 or 5 spades here, unless you yourself have a game going hand.

The issue is when RHO sticks in a 1M bid on 3 small and you and your partner have a game in M. If you have 5 or a good 4, you can just bid 2M, and with any-old 4, you just dbl.

As the above responses suggest, though, different folks have different agreements about this. So this is a good discussion to have with p.

[fromageGB]

Vampyr, on 2013-February-23, 15:50, said:

How do you find a heart game if you have one?

Let me pose a counter-question. How many times is 4♥ a sensible contract when you have an opening bid on your left, and a response on your right, giving you an expected maximum 23 count 4-4 fit with a 4-1 break against you? I think 1NT would win on a frequency basis.

[wyman]

fromageGB, on 2013-February-24, 07:58, said:

Let me pose a counter-question. How many times is 4♥ a sensible contract when you have an opening bid on your left, and a response on your right, giving you an expected maximum 23 count 4-4 fit with a 4-1 break against you? I think 1NT would win on a frequency basis.

I understand this is N/B, but RHO will often take liberties here. If he sees partner open and RHO make a TOX, and he has very little, the benefit of bidding to keep our side out of a game (where all the HCP are marked btw) seems to outweigh the small chance that partner has the rest of the deck and goes ballistic.

[fromageGB]

wyman, on 2013-February-24, 09:05, said:

I understand this is N/B, but RHO will often take liberties here. If he sees partner open and RHO make a TOX, and he has very little, the benefit of bidding to keep our side out of a game (where all the HCP are marked btw) seems to outweigh the small chance that partner has the rest of the deck and goes ballistic.

I never knew psyches like this were taught to beginners. That was the basis of my reply.

[Vampyr]

fromageGB, on 2013-February-24, 10:02, said:

I never knew psyches like this were taught to beginners. That was the basis of my reply.

I don't think anyone is teaching psyches, just noting that they can happen. The opponents may not be beginners.

Some people play that the double may or may not contain RHO's major, and that either partner can subsequently bid the suit to show 4+. Perhaps this is simplest, as it keeps all options open, and after all, RHO's bid will usually be geniune (genuine includes 5 HCP and xxxx in the suit).

[Cyberyeti]

wyman, on 2013-February-24, 09:05, said:

I understand this is N/B, but RHO will often take liberties here. If he sees partner open and RHO make a TOX, and he has very little, the benefit of bidding to keep our side out of a game (where all the HCP are marked btw) seems to outweigh the small chance that partner has the rest of the deck and goes ballistic.

This is exactly why many people (including me) play this double as penalties. xxx, xxxxx, xxx, xx 1♥-X-1♠ is worth a go. Quite a few people play X=4♠, 2♠=5+.

[PhilG007]

barsikb, on 2013-February-23, 08:43, said:

Reading TOD chapter in "25 Ways to Compete in the Bidding" (Barbara Seagram, Marc Smith).

1. Authors suggest using TOD with opening bid values including distribution. Is it really reasonable to do TOD without 12HCP very often? (not talking about balancing Dbl now)

2. I am used to responding by bidding 1NT with 6 HCP only (probably because I trust my doubling partner to have at least 12HCP). How bad is that?
They say 8-10. (with a stopper in opps' suit, of course)

3. Authors recommend jumping to game in response to partner's TOD with opening values and a 5-card major. What if partner had 6-card suit in another major, shortness in my major and was too strong to overcall (not much chance, I know)?

4. I am used to understand the second Dbl in this bidding sequence: 1♣ - Dbl - 1♥ - Dbl as showing 4-card ♠ suit (bidding ♠ now would show five of them) but this book says this double would show positive values and having ♥ (at least four of them). Really confused now.

Would appreciate your thoughts and comments

If you are ever stuck as to how to respond to partners takeout double try using the enemy suit to
pass the buck back to partner. Here is a example :-

W N E S
1D X NB ?
South holds
S.AQ82
H.K1052
D.82
C.AJ10

South should bid 2D with the above hand. The 2D bid says "I think it best if you chose the suit partner"

[wyman]

fromageGB, on 2013-February-24, 10:02, said:

I never knew psyches like this were taught to beginners. That was the basis of my reply.

If you asked me what is standard for the auction (1C) X (1H) X, I would say that I think standard is "hearts" (though I wouldn't go so far as to say "penalties."

The only reason I brought up RHO's actions is because someone asked why this would be the standard meaning: basically, it's because we don't always want to trust opponents. As someone else noted, showing length in opps' suit can have other advantages, like allowing doubler to bid NT with a weak stopper.

I hardly think this is teaching beginners to psyche. Again, I'm just providing motivation for what I believe to be standard bidding (and again, I noted that different pairs play this dbl differently, so it's worth discussing with partner and choosing what you prefer / what makes sense to you).

[JLOGIC]

They might not even be psyching, we can still easily belong in hearts if RHO has 4 hearts.