[Chris3875]

This was a quirky one that happened yesterday. During the course of the play Declarer called for a club which was situated 2nd last in the row of clubs (eg. Q873 - called for the 7) - that left a space between the 8 and the 3. Later Declarer played a small club from hand intending to play the Queen in dummy, LHO played a small club and before she could call for the Queen, RHO played the Jack and then became quite agitated because she felt the 3 of clubs was in the "played" position. I did explain Law 45B, saying that Declarer had not named any card, but it did make me realise how people can get caught if they let their attention wander.

[bluejak]

It also shows the approach of [sadly] too many people, who make a mistake and then try to find someone else to blame.

[ahydra]

Outside of the obvious legal answer to this, doesn't dummy normally pick out the card named by declarer and hold it? I can imagine that dummy's hand was nowhere near the C3 at the time. RHO is being silly.

ahydra

[barmar]

People play dummy's cards in a wide variety of ways. Many people just slide the card into the played position and let go -- if you keep your hand on the card it often gets in the way of all the players seeing it. I sometimes pick it up and hold it at an angle, but when I notice that I may be obscuring either the card with my hand, or other cards in dummy with the card, i put it down.

So I can understand how the gap that was left when the 7 was played could make it look like the 3 is in the played position. But I think players should pay more attention; just because the mistake is understandable it doesn't mean we should excuse it.

[EricK]

 ahydra, on 2012-November-01, 05:09, said:

Outside of the obvious legal answer to this, doesn't dummy normally pick out the card named by declarer and hold it? I can imagine that dummy's hand was nowhere near the C3 at the time. RHO is being silly.

I don't think this is normal at all. From my extremely limited sample, "normal" is for dummy's cards to be played in the same way as everyone else's - i.e. extracted from the hand and placed on the table. So I can easily imagine that if the 4th player wasn't watching the table, then he might think the 3 had been played. I don't think that is a valid excuse though, as he should have been watching.

[ahydra]

Right, but do they not normally place the card in a very distinct location from the rest of dummy's cards? For instance, I either hold or place the card behind dummy (i.e. on the edge of the table closest to me). I've never seen anyone just push the card from dummy into the centre of the table, for instance.

ahydra

[Vampyr]

 ahydra, on 2012-November-05, 06:46, said:

Right, but do they not normally place the card in a very distinct location from the rest of dummy's cards? For instance, I either hold or place the card behind dummy (i.e. on the edge of the table closest to me). I've never seen anyone just push the card from dummy into the centre of the table, for instance.

If the table is a bit cramped the card is sometimes placed or held on/over the board.

And of course when declarer is playing the cards, she will usually pull the card closer to herself or place it on the board.

[bluejak]

You are talking about what an opponent does when he plays a card as dummy? Apart from the fact that different opponents do different things, I have no idea what any specific opponent does - I have enough to think about anyway. Declarer calls for a card, I notice the card has done something, no idea what, I continue.

Of course, we are talking about a defender who did not notice, but suggesting he should know it has or has not been played from where it is on the table seems to me incredible. He is obviously not attending carefully otherwise he would know for certain whether it is played, and he is expected to know whether its position on the table is normal for a played card? I don't think so!

As for a dummy who holds the card in the air I would politely request him to put the card on the table. It is a very annoying but fortunately rare habit.

Of course, all this is irrelevant to the ruling. To play a card, declarer does one thing, dummy does another: neither happened, the card is not played, the defender is 100% at fault.

[barmar]

 ahydra, on 2012-November-05, 06:46, said:

I've never seen anyone just push the card from dummy into the centre of the table, for instance.

We have one player who has does this, I find it annoying.

I should probably say something. He's young (a college student), so it's not a case of trying to teach an old dog new tricks (I've given up on elderly card-snappers).

[pran]

 bluejak, on 2012-November-05, 09:06, said:

[...]
As for a dummy who holds the card in the air I would politely request him to put the card on the table. It is a very annoying but fortunately rare habit.
[...]

Does "holding it in the air" include holding it face up about 1 (or maybe 2) cm above the surface of the table?

I find this rather common when space on the table is limited, and I certainly do not find it annoying.

[bluejak]

Yes. If you hold it in the air it is not so easy to see for everyone. As for space is limited, I refuse to believe in Norway you play on tables too small to put a card on the table: what are they, 6 inches by 6 inches?

[pran]

 bluejak, on 2012-November-05, 17:32, said:

Yes. If you hold it in the air it is not so easy to see for everyone. As for space is limited, I refuse to believe in Norway you play on tables too small to put a card on the table: what are they, 6 inches by 6 inches?

This is the first time ever that I have heard about anybody having difficulty seeing a card that dummy has lifted 1 or 2 cm above the table surface while holding it steady in that position.

(The standard table size here is 80 by 80 cm. Space can sometimes feel limited as there are more items than just the cards being placed there.)

[bluejak]

The matter has been discussed before with defenders. People just act like pains: if people hold cards in the air they do not always hold them absolutely steady and sometimes they turn them one way or another. It is so much easier for everyone if they follow the rules and put them on the table.

Your tables are clearly big enough that the excuse of tables not being big enough to put the card down is laughable.

[pran]

 bluejak, on 2012-November-06, 05:26, said:

The matter has been discussed before with defenders. People just act like pains: if people hold cards in the air they do not always hold them absolutely steady and sometimes they turn them one way or another. It is so much easier for everyone if they follow the rules and put them on the table.

Your tables are clearly big enough that the excuse of tables not being big enough to put the card down is laughable.

You seem to introduce conditions not in issue.

I am not talking about dummy "waiving" his card around in the air, I am talking about the typical play when declarer calls a card, dummy picks it up from the table, holds it steady face up for the about two seconds needed to complete the trick and then quits it (along with the other three players). Incidentally I often see also the other three players holding their cards in a position clearly indicating that the card has been plaid rather than physically placing it face up down on the table when the trick is completed within a couple of seconds. (Most tricks are!)

My experience is that when any player needs the trick to remain faced more than a couple of seconds while considering his future play then all cards "held" are placed down on the table (face up) without any request or comment. And again: You are the only person I have encountered apparently having any problem with this way of playing the cards?

[Zelandakh]

 pran, on 2012-November-06, 08:44, said:

And again: You are the only person I have encountered apparently having any problem with this way of playing the cards?

In an early league match I once had my RHO replay and put down every one of their first 6 cards because they had a habit of holding the card turned away from me and waved in a most unsteady way, together with simply placing it face down when playing last to a trick (apart from the card they wanted partner to note as a signal). After this she got the message but there were still a few that caused issues. In the second half of the same team match, one of the ladies also liked to hold her card out but did it steadily so it caused no problem. Except that she would hold it halfway across the table accompanied by a meaningful look when making an important suit preference signal.

This seems to be par for the course amongst players who hold their cards above the table in this manner. So no, David is not alone in finding it annoying on occasion.

[pran]

 Zelandakh, on 2012-November-06, 09:50, said:

In an early league match I once had my RHO replay and put down every one of their first 6 cards because they had a habit of holding the card turned away from me and waved in a most unsteady way, together with simply placing it face down when playing last to a trick (apart from the card they wanted partner to note as a signal). After this she got the message but there were still a few that caused issues. In the second half of the same team match, one of the ladies also liked to hold her card out but did it steadily so it caused no problem. Except that she would hold it halfway across the table accompanied by a meaningful look when making an important suit preference signal.

This seems to be par for the course amongst players who hold their cards above the table in this manner. So no, David is not alone in finding it annoying on occasion.

We are discussing two entirely different scenarios. This (and the one David most recently referred to) is not the one I asked David about.

Of course playing your cards in a manner that implies signalling to your partner is illegal but entirely outside the question here.

[Vampyr]

 pran, on 2012-November-06, 08:44, said:

Incidentally I often see also the other three players holding their cards in a position clearly indicating that the card has been plaid

In England the diamonds are usually coloured orange and the clubs are grey. I must say I prefer the Norwegian approach!

[pran]

I did some monitoring in my club this evening and found that a majority of players seemed to hold the card they were playing touching or nearly touching the table until the trick was to be quitted.

Do I understand David correct that he in such cases requests players to let go of the card and only touch it again when quitting the trick? Or does he accept that players may indeed hold the card touching or nearly touching the table, i.e. say one centimeter above the table?

A definite answer to this would be interesting.

[barmar]

I'm about to head out to the club, maybe I'll keep an eye on how everyone handles the dummy as well.

[pran]

 barmar, on 2012-November-06, 16:48, said:

I'm about to head out to the club, maybe I'll keep an eye on how everyone handles the dummy as well.

Include "how they handle their own cards" as well?