[han]

I'd like to play a 14-16 1NT opening in a sayc or 2/1 based system. One way to do this is by just lowering all bids by 1 point, but this is awkward. You'll end up playing in 2NT or 3M with 17 point hands where the field is playing 1NT or 2M. I have some ideas of how to deal with this, but I'd like to hear other ideas too. These are mine:

1) Open 1NT whenever 14-16 balanced, also with 5-card major.

2) Over 1M-1NT, pass with 11-13 balanced, 1M-1NT-2C is either 17+ points or 4+ clubs (all other bids show <16 points, further developements exists).

3) Open all other 17-19 point balanced hands with 1C (so play some "short club").

4) 1C-1NT shows 8-10. Over 1C-1D, bid 1NT with 17-19 balanced (may have 4-card major). With 11-13, you may have to bid a 3-card major.

5) Over 1C-1M, bid 2D with 17-19 balanced. responder bids 2M with 4-7 points and 5+ major (which then can be passed). 2oM shows <7 points and denies a four-card major.

Any thoughts?

[inquiry]

Hannie, on Nov 11 2004, 02:10 PM, said:

I'd like to play a 14-16 1NT opening in a sayc or 2/1 based system. One way to do this is by just lowering all bids by 1 point, but this is awkward. You'll end up playing in 2NT or 3M with 17 point hands where the field is playing 1NT or 2M. I have some ideas of how to deal with this, but I'd like to hear other ideas too. These are mine:



2) Over 1M-1NT, pass with 11-13 balanced, 1M-1NT-2C is either 17+ points or 4+ clubs (all other bids show <16 points, further developements exists).

3) Open all other 17-19 point balanced hands with 1C (so play some "short club").





Any thoughts?

Quote

1) Open 1NT whenever 14-16 balanced, also with 5-card major.

Absolutely. Shape first... a balanced hand is a balanced hand.

Quote

2) Over 1M-1NT, pass with 11-13 balanced, 1M-1NT-2C is either 17+ points or 4+ clubs (all other bids show <16 points, further developements exists).

I assume this is SAYC... So I don;t have a lot to say. This is surely ok. Surely if you don't pass, you don't have a balanced 11-13. I am not so sure I like the limits on the other bids. The 2♣ as artificial 1RF is ok, and if fact is probbaly best. .

Quote

3) Open all other 17-19 point balanced hands with 1C (so play some "short club").

Nope, here we part compnay. If I have 18 and a balanced hand with five hearts, I am not opening 1♣

Quote

4) 1C-1NT shows 8-10. Over 1C-1D, bid 1NT with 17-19 balanced (may have 4-card major). With 11-13, you may have to bid a 3-card major.

This is EXACTLY what Misho and I play, well 1C-1NT can be some seven counts, but we do this and we alert the meaning of 1 of a major (as maybe 3).

Quote

5) Over 1C-1M, bid 2D with 17-19 balanced. responder bids 2M with 4-7 points and 5+ major (which then can be passed). 2oM shows <7 points and denies a four-card major.

This is another way we play. 1m-1M-2om is one round force, may or maynot be real suit. We reserve the jump to 2NT on 1m-1M-2NT to show GOOD HAND with FIT for partner major.. Think of it as jacoby 2NT by opener.... this limits both 1m-1H-2H and 1m-1H-3H, to reasonable narrow ranges. Note, it doesn't have to be 1C-1M-2D, we can use 1D-1M-2C for the same purpose. WE have adopted two small adjustments to deal with the "artifiical new minor" by opener.

1) We play 1m-2H as reverse flannery by responder. This shows 6 to bad 10 hcp and 5S and 4H. And 2) we also use 1m-2S as a preemptive (weak) jumpshift by responder (the only weak jumpshift we play). We use these two gadgets to free up two auctions... 1m-1S-2om-2H is now a hand too good for reverse flannery by responder and/or normal 4th suit forcing kind of thing. 1m-1S-2om-2S has to be weak, but promises some support for one or the other minor.. why? No jump to 2S or 2H (so 5S and 3H max, so at least 3 card support for one of the minors -- remember opener does not have to have both minors). IF the bidding goes 1D-1S-2C-2S keeps responder from taking false preference 2D with a bad hand with better club support. This is very important for us because our 1D-1S-2C auction, opener might have just diamonds, both diamonds and clubs, or a big balanced hand without a real minor suit.

I think you are very much on a good track here... obviously. :-)

Ben

[Free]

I've been playing 14-16 with one of my partners for a while now, and I noticed that we win bigtime with 14 HCP, but we lose now and then with 17, as you mentioned. However, I don't feel the need to change my natural bids, since playing 14-16 is already a step forward than playing 15-17. The few bad scores can't compete with the many good scores imo.

[goodwintr]

Just a thought: if you win regularly by opening 1NT with 14, and lose occasionally by not opening 1NT with 17, why not try 1NT = 14-17? The wide range can be tolerated if you play something like Keri responses, with a lot of invitational sequences that end at two of a major (not 2NT or above).

I've been using 14-17 for a while, but do not play enough bridge to have a real feeling for it, so this is only a suggestion, not something I would defend to the end of the earth.

T.L.Goodwin

[han]

inquiry, on Nov 11 2004, 01:52 PM, said:

Quote

3) Open all other 17-19 point balanced hands with 1C (so play some "short club").

Nope, here we part compnay. If I have 18 and a balanced hand with five hearts, I am not opening 1♣

I do open 1M with a five card major and 17-19 HCP points of course. That's why I said "other".


I don't like the idea of playing 1D-1M-2C as artificial and forcing, that's why I proposed to open 1C with those balanced hands. I realize that the short club is not perfect.

How exactly do you play 1m-1M-2NT? For instance, does this guarantee 4-card support, or can it also show a good hand with a 6+ minor and 3-card support. What are the consequences for 1m-1M-2M and 1m-1M-3M?

(btw, I also play reverse flannery, so I have the sequence 1C-1S-2D-2H available. Playing 2S as a weak jump shift might work with these methods as you decribe, but I've been using it as the stronger reverse flannery, which I'm quite happy with.)

[han]

goodwintr, on Nov 11 2004, 04:02 PM, said:

Just a thought: if you win regularly by opening 1NT with 14, and lose occasionally by not opening 1NT with 17, why not try 1NT = 14-17? The wide range can be tolerated if you play something like Keri responses, with a lot of invitational sequences that end at two of a major (not 2NT or above).

I've been using 14-17 for a while, but do not play enough bridge to have a real feeling for it, so this is only a suggestion, not something I would defend to the end of the earth.

T.L.Goodwin

Playing a 3-point notrump range will be a weak part of your system no matter how good your responses are. I realize that this may make the rest of your system better, but I'd rather try to deal with the 14-16 notrump.

[inquiry]

Hannie, on Nov 11 2004, 05:11 PM, said:

inquiry, on Nov 11 2004, 01:52 PM, said:

Quote

3) Open all other 17-19 point balanced hands with 1C (so play some "short club").

Nope, here we part compnay. If I have 18 and a balanced hand with five hearts, I am not opening 1♣

I do open 1M with a five card major and 17-19 HCP points of course. That's why I said "other".


I don't like the idea of playing 1D-1M-2C as artificial and forcing, that's why I proposed to open 1C with those balanced hands. I realize that the short club is not perfect.

How exactly do you play 1m-1M-2NT? For instance, does this guarantee 4-card support, or can it also show a good hand with a 6+ minor and 3-card support. What are the consequences for 1m-1M-2M and 1m-1M-3M?

(btw, I also play reverse flannery, so I have the sequence 1C-1S-2D-2H available. Playing 2S as a weak jump shift might work with these methods as you decribe, but I've been using it as the stronger reverse flannery, which I'm quite happy with.)

Our 1m-1M-? support bids are

1) 2M = upto 14 pts counting distribution, maybe 3 card support
2) 3M = 15-16 points counting distribution, four card support
3) 3m = good minor (six+) with three card support for major, not forcing
4) 4m = good minor (solid or semi-solid), and four card support
5) 4om = splinter, GF, but not too strong
6) Jump shift major = splinter, GF, but not too strong
7) 2om- then support, 3 card support, typically 17-19 where you could rebid 2NT
8) 2NT = four card support, at least 17 points in support...

We use 3C over 2NT as responder's way to say, "i am not interested in game", other bids besides 3C are all game force and some strong slam tries. We use basically modified (since opener is doing the 2NT bidding) reponses that we use for !M-2NT (which we play as limit + raise as described in the ETM Victory bidding system).

Ben

[han]

Free, on Nov 11 2004, 02:06 PM, said:

I've been playing 14-16 with one of my partners for a while now, and I noticed that we win bigtime with 14 HCP, but we lose now and then with 17, as you mentioned.  However, I don't feel the need to change my natural bids, since playing 14-16 is already a step forward than playing 15-17.  The few bad scores can't compete with the many good scores imo.

It is true that you can do well just by playing standard with a 14-16 NT, and that this is already an improvement if you open light. However, the ideas I described have some other advantages, namely:

a) As Ben noted, you free up the 2NT rebid which can be used for other purposed.

b ) You can often rebid 1NT with 17-19 points, which should work very well.

c) You are able to stop in 2M with 17 HCP versus a (sub-)minimal response with a 5-card major. My partner and I believe that responding 1H on xx KJxxx xxx xxx is better than passing 1C, but we'd like to stop in 2M.

There may be other advantages too, which I haven't discovered yet.

[han]

inquiry, on Nov 11 2004, 04:20 PM, said:

1) 2M = upto 14 pts counting distribution, maybe 3 card support
2) 3M = 15-16 points counting distribution, four card support
3) 3m = good minor (six+) with three card support for major, not forcing
4) 4m = good minor (solid or semi-solid), and four card support
5) 4om = splinter, GF, but not too strong
6) Jump shift major = splinter, GF, but not too strong
7) 2om- then support, 3 card support, typically 17-19 where you could rebid 2NT
8) 2NT = four card support, at least 17 points in support...

I see you use 3m to show 3-card support. Does this mean that you have to go through 2om to show a hand standard players would bid 3m with?

[inquiry]

Hannie, on Nov 11 2004, 05:32 PM, said:

inquiry, on Nov 11 2004, 04:20 PM, said:

1) 2M = upto 14 pts counting distribution, maybe 3 card support
2) 3M = 15-16 points counting distribution, four card support
3) 3m = good minor (six+) with three card support for major, not forcing
4) 4m = good minor (solid or semi-solid), and four card support
5) 4om = splinter, GF, but not too strong
6) Jump shift major = splinter, GF, but not too strong
7) 2om- then support, 3 card support, typically 17-19 where you could rebid 2NT
8) 2NT = four card support, at least 17 points in support...

I see you use 3m to show 3-card support. Does this mean that you have to go through 2om to show a hand standard players would bid 3m with?

This is a good question.

I show specifically three card support two ways.

1) 1m-1M-3m, and
2) 1m-1M-2om-whatever-raise major

But also my 1m-1M-2M is frequenlty three card support.

The 1m-1M-3m is nonforcing, shows a nice suit (not solid by any means, but nice), and three card support. It is not forcing. So, as you summised, I don't have 1m-1M-3m available for typical hands others might use that bid for.

Among the ways we treat these "good minor suit" hand are,

1) We can open multi 2D with them with 9.5 tricks and a very good suit (we include acol bids in the minor in our multi 2D opening bid),
2) We can jump rebid 3NT if the hand is suitable.
3) With a really good hand (but not good enough for Multi 2D), we in fact do bid the other minor. The plan is to then rebid the first minor to show this type hand. But before we bid, we do get information from partner over the forcing 2om bid, that is often very useful.

Note, we play 1D-1M-3C as forcing, 5-5 or better. So 1D-1M-2C then 3C rebid is obvioulsy not forcing (the 3C rebid that is).

Ben

[the hog]

Hannie, I suggest the following -
1C = C or balanced 11-13, or balanced 17-19. - even possibly with 5D
1D = natural 4+

Over 1C
1D/H/S = transfer Walsh
1N = gf in Ds
2C = gf C

Examples
1C 1D
1H = 11-13 2/3 card support.
1N = 17-19, - 2 way checkback
2N = art 16-18 with 3 card support, long C OR 4 card support 16+

I have a copy of this style if you want.

[han]

The_Hog, on Nov 11 2004, 04:47 PM, said:

Hannie, I suggest the following -
1C = C or balanced 11-13, or balanced 17-19. - even possibly with 5D
1D = natural 4+

Over 1C
1D/H/S = transfer Walsh
1N = gf in Ds
2C = gf C

Examples
1C 1D
1H = 11-13 2/3 card support.
1N = 17-19, - 2 way checkback
2N = art 16-18 with 3 card support, long C OR 4 card support 16+

I have a copy of this style if you want.

Thanks for the suggestion, which I think is a very good one. I have played transfer-Walsh, and I like it a lot. I currently live in the US, and it is not legal in most events here.

I think that my ideas (by which I don't mean to say that they are mine) are legal.

I know, it makes no sense.

[cf_John0]

There are so much "components" to fossick, U can just DIY as a compatible PC

[mike777]

Playing an old system by an old buddy 1nt=14-16 and 2d=18-19. In their style many off shape hands are considered balanced. Full tool box of gadgets over these openings. Many/most junky 11-13 hands open with 1C or 1D or 5 card major. Bergen raises and minor suit gadget raises. Lighter hands with a lot of shape and HCP concentration may be opened at one level. Barry Crane rule, whatever that means. 2/1 is stronger response than basic version.

Many competitive devices listed in Bergen books, XYZ, etc.

[Gerben47]

Open all 17-19 balanced with 1C (yes even 5M332) is a simple effective solution.
Another solution is to reserve a 2-bid for 19-20 balanced, or to play a Multi 2♦ including a strong NT.

[helene_t]

I've played something like this for some time but both my partners prefer not to be obliged to open 1NT with 5M. A few comments:
- Leon Jacob's system is also based on a 14-16 1NT which includes 5M332. As is the Swedish Super Standard. The latter has a short 1♣. You may like to have a look at those systems.
- 14-15 points, 4 spades and 5 hearts may cause a rebid problem. You could play some kind of non-forcing Kaplan Inversion but I'm afraid that's illegal in the U.S.
- I agree with Ron that a short-club opening should be played with transfer responses. As for the legal issues .... it seems that everything is illegal in the U.S. But a recent referendum in Montana approved Marihuanna for medical use, so we can hope that they will put T-Walsh on the aganda for the 2008 elections.

[Free]

Gerben47, on Nov 12 2004, 11:24 AM, said:

Open all 17-19 balanced with 1C (yes even 5M332) is a simple effective solution.
Another solution is to reserve a 2-bid for 19-20 balanced, or to play a Multi 2♦ including a strong NT.

The 19 HCP hands are not the problem, it's the 17's which get you too high sometimes...

[Gerben47]

Short club can also be played in with a Polish like structure:

1♣ (2+ cards, including ALL 17-19 NT) -?

1♦: 0 - 6 or natural
1M: 7+ 4+card
1NT: 7 - 10

After 1♣ - 1♦ rebid 1♥ with any 12-14 balanced or unbal. with 4♥.
Rebid 1NT with any 17-19 balanced.
After a different bid you know partner has a real hand (7+!) and you will not get too high.

Using 1♦ as an artificial negative IS legal in the GCC.

[luke warm]

helene_t, on Nov 12 2004, 01:32 PM, said:

But a recent referendum in Montana approved Marihuanna for medical use....

didn't you hear? there was also a referrendum in alaska and it approved marijuana for use as a recreational drug, if you are 21 or older... also, they can buy, sell, and grow it... life is good

i think they can also ship it to me here in louisiana, but i'd be arrested if i opened the package

[mike777]

Great now my partners play high on more legal drugs.