BBO Discussion Forums: Who should have bid 4 Spades? - BBO Discussion Forums

Jump to content

  • 2 Pages +
  • 1
  • 2
  • You cannot start a new topic
  • You cannot reply to this topic

Who should have bid 4 Spades? 2/1 ACBL

Poll: Who should have bid 4 Spades? (13 member(s) have cast votes)

Who should have bid 4Spades?

  1. West (8 votes [61.54%])

    Percentage of vote: 61.54%

  2. East (5 votes [38.46%])

    Percentage of vote: 38.46%

Vote Guests cannot vote

#1 User is offline   dickiegera 

  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Full Members
  • Posts: 569
  • Joined: 2009-July-12
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Ohio

Posted 2012-March-22, 14:29


1

#2 User is offline   ArtK78 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 7,786
  • Joined: 2004-September-05
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Galloway NJ USA
  • Interests:Bridge, Poker, participatory and spectator sports.
    Occupation - Tax Attorney in Atlantic City, NJ.

Posted 2012-March-22, 14:33

West. I would bid 4♠, not 3♠. As little as KTxx of spades and out gives you some play for 10 tricks, and more than that gives you good play for 10 tricks.

Quite frankly, I might bid 4♠ on the East cards over partner's 3♠, but that is not as clear. West could have the same hand with Qx of hearts and AKQJ of diamonds and have minimal play for game.
0

#3 User is offline   kenrexford 

  • Brain Farts and Actual Farts Increasing with Age
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 9,586
  • Joined: 2005-September-21
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Lima, Allen County, North-West-Central Ohio, USA
  • Interests:www.limadbc.blogspot.com editor/contributor

Posted 2012-March-22, 14:43

I disagree completely. East should clearly bid 4♠. What else would he do after West splinters in hearts?
"Gibberish in, gibberish out. A trial judge, three sets of lawyers, and now three appellate judges cannot agree on what this law means. And we ask police officers, prosecutors, defense lawyers, and citizens to enforce or abide by it? The legislature continues to write unreadable statutes. Gibberish should not be enforced as law."

-P.J. Painter.
1

#4 User is offline   han 

  • Under bidder
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 11,797
  • Joined: 2004-July-25
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Amsterdam, the Netherlands

Posted 2012-March-22, 14:44

Both should bid 4S imo.
Please note: I am interested in boring, bog standard, 2/1.

- hrothgar
0

#5 User is offline   Cyberyeti 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 14,208
  • Joined: 2009-July-13
  • Location:England

Posted 2012-March-22, 15:01

View Postkenrexford, on 2012-March-22, 14:43, said:

I disagree completely. East should clearly bid 4♠. What else would he do after West splinters in hearts?

Depends on opps methods, there's no reason why partner should only have one heart unless opps play support XX or something else that guarantees a 4th heart for 2♥.
0

#6 User is offline   kenrexford 

  • Brain Farts and Actual Farts Increasing with Age
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 9,586
  • Joined: 2005-September-21
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Lima, Allen County, North-West-Central Ohio, USA
  • Interests:www.limadbc.blogspot.com editor/contributor

Posted 2012-March-22, 16:42

View PostCyberyeti, on 2012-March-22, 15:01, said:

Depends on opps methods, there's no reason why partner should only have one heart unless opps play support XX or something else that guarantees a 4th heart for 2♥.

You are missing my point. East does not infer a splinter, he hears one.
"Gibberish in, gibberish out. A trial judge, three sets of lawyers, and now three appellate judges cannot agree on what this law means. And we ask police officers, prosecutors, defense lawyers, and citizens to enforce or abide by it? The legislature continues to write unreadable statutes. Gibberish should not be enforced as law."

-P.J. Painter.
0

#7 User is offline   MrAce 

  • VIP Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 6,971
  • Joined: 2009-November-14
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Houston, TX

Posted 2012-March-22, 16:52

View PostCyberyeti, on 2012-March-22, 15:01, said:

Depends on opps methods, there's no reason why partner should only have one heart unless opps play support XX or something else that guarantees a 4th heart for 2♥.


Ken suggests that West should have bid 4♥ instead of 3♠, then only east can bid 4♠. Which i agree.

I also agree with Han that, even if West bids only 3♠, East has a clear raise. Thus both underbid their hand.
"Genius has its own limitations, however stupidity has no such boundaries!"
"It's only when a mosquito lands on your testicles that you realize there is always a way to solve problems without using violence!"

"Well to be perfectly honest, in my humble opinion, of course without offending anyone who thinks differently from my point of view, but also by looking into this matter in a different perspective and without being condemning of one's view's and by trying to make it objectified, and by considering each and every one's valid opinion, I honestly believe that I completely forgot what I was going to say."
0

#8 User is offline   Cyberyeti 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 14,208
  • Joined: 2009-July-13
  • Location:England

Posted 2012-March-22, 19:14

View PostMrAce, on 2012-March-22, 16:52, said:

Ken suggests that West should have bid 4♥ instead of 3♠, then only east can bid 4♠. Which i agree.

I also agree with Han that, even if West bids only 3♠, East has a clear raise. Thus both underbid their hand.

Hate 4♥ unless you have some REALLY strong agreements about partner's X here. I know my partner won't always have 4 spades here, and I'd really rather not go beyond 3N just yet (Axx, Kxx, xxx, Axxx for example).

Fortunately I play lebensohl here so can bid the "staymanic without a stop" 3♥ showing exactly 4 spades.
0

#9 User is offline   bigbenvic 

  • PipPipPipPip
  • Group: Full Members
  • Posts: 317
  • Joined: 2011-October-23
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Melbourne, Australia

Posted 2012-March-22, 21:50

West's hand is huge after the double and teh wimpy bid of 3S does it 0 justice.

The ♦ suit is 4 gaurenteed tricks, most likely 5, it's worth so much more than 10 points. Singleton in their fit is great, 4 smallish trumps is even better as those ♥ ruffs don't waste any trump strength.

i wouldn't be bidding 4S with west but a bid to show a great hand and a singleton ♥ (3h for eg) would be good, if partner just bid 3S or passed a 4H bid I'd still bid 4S.

West from East's POV is probably Ballanced - either 4243 or 4252 and not strong enough to open 1NT.
Having heard 3♠ East's flat ballanced hand of 8 points with xxx in ♥ opposite a non singleton (poor), xx opposite pards 3 or 4 card suit (not so great) and JTxx opposite 2 or 3 clubs (ok but not great) I'd probably pass too.
1

#10 User is offline   gwnn 

  • Csaba the Hutt
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 13,027
  • Joined: 2006-June-16
  • Gender:Male
  • Interests:bye

Posted 2012-March-23, 01:27

The only way I can see missing this game is

1♦-1♥-(falls asleep), pass-2♥
x-p-(falls asleep), 2♠-p
p-p

Once east doubles, west has a clear game force, one west invites, east has a clear accept.
... and I can prove it with my usual, flawless logic.
      George Carlin
0

#11 User is offline   Codo 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 6,373
  • Joined: 2003-March-15
  • Location:Hamburg, Germany
  • Interests:games and sports, esp. bridge,chess and (beach-)volleyball

Posted 2012-March-23, 04:06

On a real bad day, you can bid and go down in 5 ♠, but there is no sensible auction to miss game.
As most others, I think both players are at fault, but I dislike easts pass much more then Wests jump to 3 ♠.
Kind Regards

Roland

Sanity Check: Failure (Fluffy)
More system is not the answer...
0

#12 User is offline   phil_20686 

  • Scotland
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 2,754
  • Joined: 2008-August-22
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Scotland

Posted 2012-March-23, 04:51

People must be making neg x's must more aggressively than I do if they think east has an obvious accept over 3S. For one thing are you not pretty much guaranteed two heart losers at this point?

Agree with ken that west should rebid 3H not 3S, also agree that west has a GF over dble. I basically feel like slam is still in the picture with the west cards.
The physics is theoretical, but the fun is real. - Sheldon Cooper
0

#13 User is offline   gnasher 

  • Andy Bowles
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 11,993
  • Joined: 2007-May-03
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:London, UK

Posted 2012-March-23, 05:19

View Postphil_20686, on 2012-March-23, 04:51, said:

People must be making neg x's must more aggressively than I do if they think east has an obvious accept over 3S. For one thing are you not pretty much guaranteed two heart losers at this point?


I think the double shows the same values as partner would assume in an uncontested auction, except that you don't have to bid with a hand that got worse or would have been sub-minimum in the first place. It could be as bad as A8xx xxx xx J10xx, for example.

East's actual hand, apart from being non-minimum, has no wastage in the opponents' suit. It's OK to lose two hearts if that solidifies the rest of the hand.
... that would still not be conclusive proof, before someone wants to explain that to me as well as if I was a 5 year-old. - gwnn
0

#14 User is offline   Vampyr 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 10,611
  • Joined: 2009-September-15
  • Gender:Female
  • Location:London

Posted 2012-March-23, 05:48

View PostCyberyeti, on 2012-March-22, 19:14, said:

Hate 4♥ unless you have some REALLY strong agreements about partner's X here. I know my partner won't always have 4 spades here, and I'd really rather not go beyond 3N just yet (Axx, Kxx, xxx, Axxx for example).

Fortunately I play lebensohl here so can bid the "staymanic without a stop" 3♥ showing exactly 4 spades.


Hmm. I play Lebensohl in similar auctions but not when we have opened the bidding. It's a good idea though.

Everyone else in this thread thinks that West can rely upon East to always deliver four spades. I don't think this method is playable; so I would have bid 1♠ as East.
I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones -- Albert Einstein
1

#15 User is offline   billw55 

  • enigmatic
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 4,757
  • Joined: 2009-July-31
  • Gender:Male

Posted 2012-March-23, 07:55

You need a poll choice for both. Probably some weighted choices. Personally I give 3/4 blame to west and 1/4 to east.
Life is long and beautiful, if bad things happen, good things will follow.
-gwnn
1

#16 User is offline   phil_20686 

  • Scotland
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 2,754
  • Joined: 2008-August-22
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Scotland

Posted 2012-March-23, 09:11

View Postgnasher, on 2012-March-23, 05:19, said:

I think the double shows the same values as partner would assume in an uncontested auction, except that you don't have to bid with a hand that got worse or would have been sub-minimum in the first place. It could be as bad as A8xx xxx xx J10xx, for example.

East's actual hand, apart from being non-minimum, has no wastage in the opponents' suit. It's OK to lose two hearts if that solidifies the rest of the hand.


When i looked at this yesterday I somehow thought east was doubling at the two level.
The physics is theoretical, but the fun is real. - Sheldon Cooper
0

#17 User is offline   rmnka447 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 2,366
  • Joined: 2012-March-18
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Illinois
  • Interests:Bridge, Golf, Soccer

Posted 2012-March-23, 09:22

West has a 5 loser hand, that's too much to invite. West's choices for a rebid should have been between 3 ♥, 4 ♥, or 4 ♠. Of those, I like the 4 ♥ splinter the best. It's the most descriptive and possibly opens the way to slam if the opponent's have very aggressive with their overcall and raise.
1

#18 User is offline   ggwhiz 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 3,952
  • Joined: 2008-June-23
  • Gender:Male

Posted 2012-March-23, 09:38

View Posthan, on 2012-March-22, 14:44, said:

Both should bid 4S imo.


Yes. I couldn't vote without that option. They both have perfect heart holdings and strength.
When a deaf person goes to court is it still called a hearing?
What is baby oil made of?
0

#19 User is offline   quiddity 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 1,099
  • Joined: 2008-November-21

Posted 2012-March-23, 17:33

I think 3♠ is enough with J-high of trumps. East should raise.
1

#20 User is offline   quiddity 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 1,099
  • Joined: 2008-November-21

Posted 2012-March-23, 17:36

View Postbigbenvic, on 2012-March-22, 21:50, said:

West from East's POV is probably Ballanced - either 4243 or 4252 and not strong enough to open 1NT.


You either misread the auction or misunderstood the 3♠ bid. It does not show a weak notrump.
1
  • 2 Pages +
  • 1
  • 2
  • You cannot start a new topic
  • You cannot reply to this topic

1 User(s) are reading this topic
0 members, 1 guests, 0 anonymous users