[MickyB]

I'm keen to try 1M:2C as 2+cards, GF unless responder rebids 3C. To those who play this, or who play it as 2+cards GF -

Do you respond 2C to 1H when holding four spades?
If so, do you play 1H:2C, 2S doesn't show extras?
If so, what do you rebid on 4S6H?
If always 2S, what does 1H:2C, 2H:2S show? Natural unbalanced but can be three cards?

Does (53)14 still bid 1M:2C, 3D splinter?
How do you continue after 1M:2C, 3C - eg could 3D now be 2-4-4-3 with weak hearts?

Does 1M:2D, 3D still show four cards?
Does 1H:2D, 2S show extras?

Anything else I've missed?

[the_clown]

I have been playing this with one of my partners for a short time, so I dont have a lot of experience with this.

I like to respond 1♠ when holding 4♠ unless I have 4 small and a balanced hand that would play much better in nt anyway.

A reverse to 2♠ shows something extra, but not very much (KJ10x AQ10xx KJx x) is the worst you could have. Respectively 2N and 2H are the two bids which you can make with the minimum hands.

With 6-4 I rebid 2♠, if I have the strenght to do it.

1M-2♣-3♦ is a Splinter, but with a minimum or close than a min hand I like to bid 3♣.

No It could be on a 3card suit, if you have a shortness.

Yes

[paulg]

We invested in relays to play this style and are very happy with it. It also allows us to junk Jacoby and put all the GF hands with support into 2C too, whilst retaining invitational with clubs hand. It takes some work but the relays are the same over both 1H and 1S responses.

MickyB, on 2012-March-21, 08:50, said:

Does 1M:2D, 3D still show four cards?
Does 1H:2D, 2S show extras?

Our style is that a reverse still shows some extras and that a raise of 2D is rare with three-card support unless we are minimum with shortage elsewhere.

[Phil]

1. I would respond 2♣ with any balanced GF with four spades.

2. Since you are playing a repeat of responder's suit is NF, then a reverse by opener really needs to be GF. With 4♠/6♥, I would rebid 2♥ most of the time knowing that if partner held four spades, he will bid them himself.

3. 3♦ is a splinter unless you decide to make 1M - 2♣ - 2♦ as artificial. With one partner I play this to show a minimum, and then 2OM continues to ask. If it is a splinter, then opener can't go bananas in clubs when responder supports the major, or bids 3N.

4. 1M - 2♦ - 3♦ can be three cards. Isn't that one of the benefits of playing this? It should show a little extra than a bare minimum.

5. 1♥ - 2♦ - 2♠ can show a minimum, but isn't a 3♦ rebid NF in your methods?

2443 can be a bear to work out. 1M - 2♣ - 3♣ - 3♦ 'sounds' like real clubs, but I think 3 red should be stopper showing (similar to an inverted minor sequence) or an advanced cue bid.

[MickyB]

Phil, on 2012-March-21, 10:07, said:

2. Since you are playing a repeat of responder's suit is NF, then a reverse by opener really needs to be GF. With 4♠/6♥, I would rebid 2♥ most of the time knowing that if partner held four spades, he will bid them himself.

Really? You'd bid 1H:2C, 2H:2S on 4243?

I like the idea of 1H:2C, 2S not showing extras in conjunction with 2/1 GF except rebid, as this would mean you could respond 2C with 4S6C invite, intending to rebid 3C unless partner shows four spades.

[Phil]

MickyB, on 2012-March-21, 10:26, said:

Really? You'd bid 1H:2C, 2H:2S on 4243?

Yes? Someone has to bid spades at some point. Of course, I play Flannery, so this mitigates these issues.

But you comments underscore the issue with a short 2♣. Opener is frequently driving in the fog, since the clubs aren't known.

[han]

So Phil, why does a reverse need to show extras here? You are not forcing to a higher level as you were never going to stop below 3C and you can still stop there.

I like Mickyb's reasons here, rebid 2NT with the balanced hand as responder and play that a 2S rebid by responder shows honest clubs.

[Phil]

han, on 2012-March-21, 11:03, said:

So Phil, why does a reverse need to show extras here? You are not forcing to a higher level as you were never going to stop below 3C and you can still stop there.

Whenever I played 1M - 2x - 2y - 3x was NF, it was important for opener to clarify early whether or not he had extras and to set a GF. Otherwise responder had to do something else other than 3x to set a GF if opener did not show extras.

This was Lawrence by the book. I mean, I don't play this method anymore, and I have a hard time really disagreeing with what you are saying, or what Lawrence said. If 2♠ establishes a GF, then 3♣ becomes vague, but if 2♠ can be a minimum non GF, then responder needs to an invent a GF (although he would over 2♥ as well).

[MrAce]

I hate the style where rebidding the minor is NF. It puts a lot of weight in 2/1 auctions and thats why i like 1M-3m showing that type of hand, but Bergen lovers can not do this.

This also allows me to bid 2♠ as opener without worrying about extras.

[kenrexford]

MickyB, on 2012-March-21, 08:50, said:

I'm keen to try 1M:2C as 2+cards, GF unless responder rebids 3C. To those who play this, or who play it as 2+cards GF -

Do you respond 2C to 1H when holding four spades? If GF, yes.
If so, do you play 1H:2C, 2S doesn't show extras? Depends. If playing Flannery, it still shows extras. Or, it shows extras if I have Opener allowed to make a similar 2♦ rebid with "waiting" hands.
If so, what do you rebid on 4S6H? 2♥
If always 2S, what does 1H:2C, 2H:2S show? Natural unbalanced but can be three cards?
Not relevant because not always 2♠ for me.
Does (53)14 still bid 1M:2C, 3D splinter? Yes, if it otherwise qualifies. For me, that means great honor holdings in my opened major and in clubs.

How do you continue after 1M:2C, 3C - eg could 3D now be 2-4-4-3 with weak hearts? I only bid 2♣ with a two-card suit if also holding a fit for Opener's major. So, for me to not have a fit in the major and not a fit in clubs, I must be specifically (2-4)-4-3, as you mentioned, with two in Opener's major. 3♦ is now either a NT probe or a slam move, which will develop later.

Does 1M:2D, 3D still show four cards? Not necessarily, but usually.
Does 1H:2D, 2S show extras? No, unless playing Flannery.

Anything else I've missed? As suggested above, incorporating a 2♦ rebid by Opener as "waiting" has a similar theoretical basis to the 2♣ call as 2+ and is extremely useful in practice. As a simple example, if the auction would have been 1M-P-2♣-P-2NT-P-3OM, we instead will have 1M-P-2♣-P-2♦-P-2OM and save space.

[phil_20686]

MickyB, on 2012-March-21, 08:50, said:

I'm keen to try 1M:2C as 2+cards, GF unless responder rebids 3C. To those who play this, or who play it as 2+cards GF -

1 Do you respond 2C to 1H when holding four spades?
2 If so, do you play 1H:2C, 2S doesn't show extras?
3 If so, what do you rebid on 4S6H?
4 If always 2S, what does 1H:2C, 2H:2S show? Natural unbalanced but can be three cards?


5 Does (53)14 still bid 1M:2C, 3D splinter?
6 How do you continue after 1M:2C, 3C - eg could 3D now be 2-4-4-3 with weak hearts?

7 Does 1M:2D, 3D still show four cards?
8 Does 1H:2D, 2S show extras?

Anything else I've missed?

1) Always when i have more clubs than spades - when in a balanced hand I would do it only when I have 3 hearts, and do not want to focus partners attention on spades. G.g. xxxx KQx AQxx Ax, I think it is quite bad to respond one spade, as you can never persaude partner that a singleton spade is an asset. But generally I respond 1S.
2) No.
3) I bid spades if I have extras. after 1h-2c-2s its basically obligatory for partner to bid 2N, then you kind bid your shape etc
4) This is always longer clubs. 4-5.
5) I think its more natural to play 3d here as extras 5-5. I mean its not uncommon for partner to have two or 3 clubs and be supporting hearts, so you dont want to take up space. I play 3c = natural, 4 cards, with extras. If partner bids a new suit now that is natural, and agrees clubs. If he bids 3N that is to play, but always has natural clubs too. Think this covers (6) too.
7) I think this is playable either way. I play 3d = extras, obviously I count a fourth card as extras, but will not necessarily bid 3d even with four cards. If you use it to show four cards always it should not promise extras I think. Recall aswell that partner will often have a splinter available if he has four card support. Its not obviously optimal to have the same agreement for the 3s splinter as the 4c splinter, as the second avoids 3N.
8) yes for me

[gnasher]

It's not the question that you've asked, but I wouldn't allow opener to "raise" clubs when he has only four of them. When you play a multi-way bid, any space-consuming reply makes it hard to find out what the Multi-bidder has got. To compensate, you should make the space-consuming reply well-defined. I would play something like:

2♦ = a normal minimum without both majors
2♥ = a normal non-minimum without both majors
2♠/NT = both majors, in some arrangement that lets you show all of the shapes and strengths
3♣/♦ = natural, 5-5, mid-range.

(This is what I play opposite a 2♣ response which is clubs, diamonds or balanced.)

[MickyB]

I always thought it would be hard to play this without just wanting to play relays. I briefly thought it might be possible - how foolish!

[rhm]

MickyB, on 2012-March-22, 05:30, said:

I always thought it would be hard to play this without just wanting to play relays. I briefly thought it might be possible - how foolish!

Well, relays come in a lot of flavours and you can play something in between.
What needs to be observed is when you put more hand types into 2C you also should make good use of the biddimg space available when starting with 2C.
For example the 2D response by opener is often severely underutilized in standard (requiring a diamond side suit), while bids like rebidding your major to show a minimum or 2NT to show a balanced hand is a waste of bidding space.
My personal preference (homegrown) is to emphasize shape first over 2C.
All balanced or semibalanced hands respond 2D over 2C. Over 2D responder and opener have plenty of room to search for a fit and to rightside notrump. Essentially you are in a game forcing situation at 2D knowing opener is (semi)balanced with a known 5 card major now.
So any othe rebid by opener shows an unbalanced distribution (singleton or void in an unbid suit).
For example 2NT shows diamonds and an unbalanced hand, rebidding your major shows at least six, but not 6322 or 7222. These bid 2D first and then rebid the major.
Bidding the other major shows 4 cards but not 5422 etc.

This is of course just an outline, which happens to work for me

Rainer Herrmann

[bluecalm]

Quote

I always thought it would be hard to play this without just wanting to play relays. I briefly thought it might be possible - how foolish!

Well.. relays at some point, sure but initial bidding could be natural more or less.
Here is outline of very good system (used by top Italian pairs):

1S - 2C
-2D - 4+diamonds, any strength/shape
-2H - 5+-4+majors
-2S - either 12-14 any or 12-21 with 6 spades
-2N - 15+ 5-(3-3-2)
-3C - exactly 4clubs (then 3D is relay for shortness)
-3D - 5S-5C extras
-3H - 7+spades (and I am not sure but I think very strong hands don't go here)
-3S - 5spades-5clubs - minimimum

1S - 2C
2S - 2N
and now:
-3C = exactly 4 clubs (then relay for shortness)
-3D = exactly 3 clubs (then relay for 6th spade)
-3H - 6+spades, extras
-3S - 6spades, minimum
-3N - 5-3-3-2 exactly

1S - 2C
2H - here there are two relays; 2S with spade support and 2N without it; I can dig up continuations if you are interested; similar scheme is used after 2D

One type of hand which I was unable to reverse engineer is 6S-4C hand. I think it goes above 3N after 3D relay so there should be some restraints as to what hands could bid that. Maybe:
1S - 2C
2S - 2N
3C (or 3C directly) and here maybe 3H should just ask about 6th spade and 3D for shape ready to go to 4th level if opener is 6-4.

1S - 2D

here the biddign is very similar to 1S - 2C.

[MickyB]

bluecalm, on 2012-March-22, 07:16, said:

Well.. relays at some point, sure but initial bidding could be natural more or less.
Here is outline of very good system (used by top Italian pairs):

1S - 2C
-2D - 4+diamonds, any strength/shape
-2H - 5+-4+majors
-2S - either 12-14 any or 12-21 with 6 spades
-2N - 15+ 5-(3-3-2)
-3C - exactly 4clubs (then 3D is relay for shortness)

Ah, excellent, this is what I was fishing for with my second set of questions, I wondered if anyone played that.

In my most serious partnership we'll probably switch to 1H:1S relay any strength and 1S:2C GF relay at somepoint. I started this thread with other, less system-heavy partnerships in mind.

[dave_w]

bluecalm, on 2012-March-22, 07:16, said:

1S - 2C
2H - here there are two relays; 2S with spade support and 2N without it; I can dig up continuations if you are interested; similar scheme is used after 2D

I'd be interested in the continuations if you can bother to dig them up

bluecalm, on 2012-March-22, 07:16, said:

One type of hand which I was unable to reverse engineer is 6S-4C hand. I think it goes above 3N after 3D relay so there should be some restraints as to what hands could bid that. Maybe:

6S-4C wants to go past 3NT regardless of strength. Partner is either bal (we have a spade fit) or has 5+ clubs (opposite a 6-4 we must be close to slam regardless of pd's strength).

[JLOGIC]

MickyB, on 2012-March-21, 08:50, said:

I'm keen to try 1M:2C as 2+cards, GF unless responder rebids 3C. To those who play this, or who play it as 2+cards GF -

Do you respond 2C to 1H when holding four spades?
If so, do you play 1H:2C, 2S doesn't show extras?
If so, what do you rebid on 4S6H?
If always 2S, what does 1H:2C, 2H:2S show? Natural unbalanced but can be three cards?

Does (53)14 still bid 1M:2C, 3D splinter?
How do you continue after 1M:2C, 3C - eg could 3D now be 2-4-4-3 with weak hearts?

Does 1M:2D, 3D still show four cards?
Does 1H:2D, 2S show extras?

Anything else I've missed?

I play what you play without relays and am quite happy with it. Not that I'm saying it's better than relaying but it works quite well if you just bid basically naturally over it.

1) Yes, 2C with all balanced hands including 4 spades.
2) No, 2S def doesn't show extras in conjunction with this (you need to find a 4-4 spade fit)
3) With 6 hearts and 4 spades I always bid 2S
4) 2S shows 4 spades and 5+ clubs
5) Splintering shows 5-5 over 1M-2C. With 4 clubs you raise to 3C, then partner can ask for shortness.
6) Yes, 1M 2D 3D shows 4 cards.
7) No, 2S doesn't show extras, gotta find spades if you are 4-5 opp 4351 imo! Among other things.

[dave_w]

JLOGIC, on 2012-April-10, 06:19, said:

7) No, 2S doesn't show extras, gotta find spades if you are 4-5 opp 4351 imo! Among other things.

I'm surprised at this. Firstly, I'm not sure 4♠ will play better with those hand shapes (the discards on the long Hearts are going to be of long diamonds!). In fact 4♥ could easily play better throwing losing spades on the long diamonds. It will matter what the texture of the two hands is.

Secondly, having a reverse which takes up room (admittedly not much room here) not show extras means it's harder for opener when they do need to show extras later. It's not like you'll always miss a 4-4 spade fit (the auction is GF and responder can always introduce them later). I'd agree with your style in a strong club but I'm not sure it's best in a standard system (although I do think it's playable - lots of top pairs do play 2/1 with those agreements).

[mgoetze]

dave_w, on 2012-April-10, 07:10, said:

I'm surprised at this.

Presumably because you haven't read Justin's previous post on this topic.