[yzugsr]

The system is SAYC, without special agreement.
The bidding goes

1♦ (3♣) - -
3♥

Your partner opens 1♦, and your RHO bid 3♣, you passed
Your partner balanced with 3♥

What does 3♥ promise?
more than 4D4H? or 5D4H? or 6D5H?

[Free]

5 ♦s, 4 ♥s. What else? Btw, I wouldn't call 3♥ 'balancing', it's more constructive with a monster hand...

[han]

I agree with free, 4+ hearts, 5+ diamonds. Almost always 6+ diamonds.

[luke warm]

yeah, 4+ hearts and 5+ diamonds with reverse+ strength

[jikl]

I agree, 5+D 4+H, however, probably not a 3451 as this might reopen with a double.

Sean

[jtfanclub]

yzugsr, on Nov 1 2004, 10:07 AM, said:

The system is SAYC, without special agreement.
The bidding goes

1♦ (3♣) - -
3♥

Your partner opens 1♦, and your RHO bid 3♣, you passed
Your partner balanced with 3♥

What does 3♥ promise?
more than 4D4H? or 5D4H? or 6D5H?

Glad to see I disagree with everybody else on the planet. Again.

x
AQJx
AKxx
Axxx

X should be takeout, so you know your partner's going to bid some number of spades. 3NT is silly. If you pass, you'll probably set it, but not by much.

What would you bid?

I think you should expect partner to be 5♦ and 4♥, but there are 4-4 hands that have no other rebid.

[flytoox]

jtfanclub, on Nov 1 2004, 06:37 PM, said:

yzugsr, on Nov 1 2004, 10:07 AM, said:

The system is SAYC, without special agreement.
The bidding goes

1♦ (3♣) - -
3♥

Your partner opens 1♦, and your RHO bid 3♣, you passed
Your partner balanced with 3♥

What does 3♥ promise?
more than 4D4H? or 5D4H? or 6D5H?

Glad to see I disagree with everybody else on the planet. Again.

x
AQJx
AKxx
Axxx

X should be takeout, so you know your partner's going to bid some number of spades. 3NT is silly. If you pass, you'll probably set it, but not by much.

What would you bid?

I think you should expect partner to be 5♦ and 4♥, but there are 4-4 hands that have no other rebid.

If you play negative dbl, then perhaps you should pass with this hand. Pd didnt dbl with apparent short club, he didnt raise your diamond either. Why didnt he dbl? Only answer is he has a broke hand so you may pass as well rather than venture 3H with 4441.

[HeartA]

jtfanclub, on Nov 1 2004, 01:37 PM, said:

Glad to see I disagree with everybody else on the planet. Again.

x
AQJx
AKxx
Axxx

X should be takeout, so you know your partner's going to bid some number of spades. 3NT is silly. If you pass, you'll probably set it, but not by much.

What would you bid?

I think you should expect partner to be 5♦ and 4♥, but there are 4-4 hands that have no other rebid.

Although what you wrote could happen, it doesn't mean 1D-(3C)-P-(P)-3H USUALLY promises 5D-4H. I don't like it when people use an extreme exception as counter-example, as the hand ♠Ax,♥5432,♦AJTx,♣Axx from another thread. There are (almost) ALWAYS exceptions for every bidding. When we say 1M promises 5-card, 1♦ promises 4-card, there are exceptions as well. With ♠AKQJ, ♥5432, ♦543, ♣A4, do you open 1C, 1D, or 1H or 1S? WIth ♠QT65,♥K943,♦AKQ,♣85, what do you open?

[EricK]

It promises 5♦ and 4♥ (and obviously a lot of extra strength), although I would expect 6-4 or 6-5 quite often.

5-4 hands with short ♣ would often double. And 5-4 hands with something in ♣ might double and take out 3♠ to 3NT, so more unbalanced hands are unlikelier.

Eric

[inquiry]

This is five hearts and six plus diamonds. End of story. With 4-5 you double, in case partner is trapping, and if you can't stand spades, correct back to diamonds. Here, you take the sword out of your partners hand with a 3♥ bid on a four card suit for goodness sake.

And if you are 1-4-4-4? Short is spades? Pass happily that you didn't get into trouble, who knows they very well may belong is spades....

Ben

[pclayton]

inquiry, on Nov 1 2004, 12:58 PM, said:

This is five hearts and six plus diamonds. End of story. With 4-5 you double, in case partner is trapping, and if you can't stand spades, correct back to diamonds. Here, you take the sword out of your partners hand with a 3♥ bid on a four card suit for goodness sake.

And if you are 1-4-4-4? Short is spades? Pass happily that you didn't get into trouble, who knows they very well may belong is spades....

Ben

I don't agree. I could have 5-4 with a strong hand and some length in LHO's suit.

x
AKJx
AKJxx
Axx

is an example. So is:

Kx
AQTx
AQxxx
Ax

Doubling will only lead to trouble with partner leaping in spades. I'm not 'correcting' at the 5 level with these hands. Ben, like you've said before, 'doubles show SHAPE'.

Note: I could ALSO have a lot of hands with 6 diamonds and 5 hearts, regardless of length of my black suits: x, Kxxxx, AKJxxx, x. I was planning on opening 1♦ and rebidding 2♦ with this collection, but now that lefty has stuck his nose in the bidding, our chance of a fit is greatly enhanced, so I'll take a chance even if it pushes us to the 4 level.

[jtfanclub]

HeartA, on Nov 1 2004, 03:29 PM, said:

jtfanclub, on Nov 1 2004, 01:37 PM, said:

I think you should expect partner to be 5♦ and 4♥, but there are 4-4 hands that have no other rebid.

Although what you wrote could happen, it doesn't mean 1D-(3C)-P-(P)-3H USUALLY promises 5D-4H. I don't like it when people use an extreme exception as counter-example,

Well, such is your choice, but in my opinion my last line is fairly clear. I also think that if you bid based on what your partner USUALLY has, you'll get into a lot of trouble. Especially bidding as if your partner has promised a 4 card diamond suit when he hasn't.

Inquiry: Why should I be worried? I have 4 sure tricks, almost certianly 5. It's not like they have a good place to run to. So they go down 2 at 3 spades doubled instead of down 3 at 3 clubs undoubled. I can deal.

This conversation is the logical extension of the experts overcalling with 20 point hands. Some hands are too strong to pass, but too weak to handle any bid likely by partner (in this case, a 4♠ bid if you X). Those hands are forced to bid a suit.

[inquiry]

pclayton, on Nov 1 2004, 05:38 PM, said:

inquiry, on Nov 1 2004, 12:58 PM, said:

This is five hearts and six plus diamonds. End of story. With 4-5 you double, in case partner is trapping, and if you can't stand spades, correct back to diamonds. Here, you take the sword out of your partners hand with a 3♥ bid on a four card suit for goodness sake.

And if you are 1-4-4-4? Short is spades? Pass happily that you didn't get into trouble, who knows they very well may belong is spades....

Ben

I don't agree. I could have 5-4 with a strong hand and some length in LHO's suit.

x
AKJx
AKJxx
Axx

is an example. So is:

Kx
AQTx
AQxxx
Ax

Doubling will only lead to trouble with partner leaping in spades. I'm not 'correcting' at the 5 level with these hands. Ben, like you've said before, 'doubles show SHAPE'.

Note: I could ALSO have a lot of hands with 6 diamonds and 5 hearts, regardless of length of my black suits: x, Kxxxx, AKJxxx, x. I was planning on opening 1♦ and rebidding 2♦ with this collection, but now that lefty has stuck his nose in the bidding, our chance of a fit is greatly enhanced, so I'll take a chance even if it pushes us to the 4 level.

Well to be honest with you, I CAN NOT BE 1444 as I have a bid for a strong hand with that holding, BUT if I was, I would NEVER bid 3♥.

Let's look at your examples...

x
AKJx
AKJxx
Axx

Your partner is presumably short in their suit and 1) Didn't double, and 2) didn't bid 3♦. True, he could have something like xxxxx Qxxx Qxx x and six ♥ is odds on.

Here, i will double, partner will bid 3♠, I will bid 4♦ and we will get to at least 4♥, if not more. I am happy with this, way.

With

Jx
AQTx
AQxxx
Ax

I pass, hey, sometimes you got to let them play the hand. I guess you could come up with a 4-5 hand or 4-6 hand where i might bid 3♥, but my partners should expect 5♥and 6♦.

Ben

[EricK]

Ben,

I am not so sure that having 3♣ in my hand is enough to presume that partner is short in ♣.

Against moderately aggressive opps, I would expect LHO to have only 6♣ a lot of the time if NV. And even if he has 7 of them partner can still hold 3. And even if partner has 2 of them, he might have a hand like ♠Axxxx ♥Qxx ♦Qxx ♣xx which is hardly enough to bid with over 3♣.

I agree that 5/6 is quite likely. But I wouldn't so blithely dismiss 4/6 (x AKQx AKJTxx xx) or 4/5 (x AKQx AKQJT xxx).

Eric

[luke warm]

inquiry, on Nov 2 2004, 03:08 AM, said:

Let's look at your examples...

x
AKJx
AKJxx
Axx

Your partner is presumably short in their suit and 1) Didn't double, and 2) didn't bid 3♦. True, he could have something like xxxxx  Qxxx Qxx x and six ♥ is odds on.

Here, i will double, partner will bid 3♠, I will bid 4♦ and we will get to at least 4♥, if not more. I am happy with this, way.

ben, how does this bidding gain over a 1d opening and 2h rebid? doesn't the above show longer diamonds with 16+ hcp?