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Let's Settle This Once And For All An Auction

#1 User is offline   kfay 

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Posted 2011-November-01, 11:39

1♠-2♦
2♥-3♣

Natural or No? (2/1)
Kevin Fay
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#2 User is offline   wyman 

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Posted 2011-November-01, 11:41

your location is wrong imo

edit:
  • Location:Ann Arbor, MI

"I think maybe so and so was caught cheating but maybe I don't have the names right". Sure, and I think maybe your mother .... Oh yeah, that was someone else maybe. -- kenberg

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#3 User is offline   gwnn 

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Posted 2011-November-01, 11:54

Natural.

<3 kfay welcome back, i missed you :(
... and I can prove it with my usual, flawless logic.
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#4 User is offline   Hanoi5 

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Posted 2011-November-01, 12:07

Artificial.

 wyman, on 2012-May-04, 09:48, said:

Also, he rates to not have a heart void when he leads the ♥3.


 rbforster, on 2012-May-20, 21:04, said:

Besides playing for fun, most people also like to play bridge to win


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#5 User is offline   EricK 

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Posted 2011-November-01, 12:35

 gwnn, on 2011-November-01, 11:54, said:

Natural.

 Hanoi5, on 2011-November-01, 12:07, said:

Artificial.

Well I'm glad we've settled that one.
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#6 User is online   jillybean 

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Posted 2011-November-01, 12:43

Natural. I'm interested as to why would you need artificial in an already gf auction?
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#7 User is offline   nigel_k 

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Posted 2011-November-01, 13:03

Artificial.

If I have Ax Kxx AQJxx xxx I really want to bid 3♣ artifical. If I have x xx AQJxx AQxxx I can bid 2NT. There is room for partner to bid 3♣ next and even if he does we may still belong in NT.
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#8 User is offline   gnasher 

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Posted 2011-November-01, 13:05

Quote

I'm interested as to why would you need artificial in an already gf auction?

It's so that you can avoid misdescribing or wrongsiding Kx KJx AQxxx xxx.
... that would still not be conclusive proof, before someone wants to explain that to me as well as if I was a 5 year-old. - gwnn
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#9 User is offline   gnasher 

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Posted 2011-November-01, 13:11

Instead of argung the merits of two imperfect methods, maybe it would be better to try to solve the underlying problem, which is that we have one more hand-type to show than we have bids available.

This appears to solve all the problems at small cost:

2♠ = 2353 or a notrump-oriented 2254, with or without a club stop
2NT = 3-card spade support
3♣ = natural
... that would still not be conclusive proof, before someone wants to explain that to me as well as if I was a 5 year-old. - gwnn
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#10 User is offline   whereagles 

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Posted 2011-November-01, 13:58

You can make a good case for 2 meanings:

1. Natural, 55 or better and slam-aspiring hand.
2. Artificial, asking for a stop in the suit bid.

I have it settled in my notes as #2.
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#11 User is offline   Siegmund 

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Posted 2011-November-01, 18:35

Artificial for me.
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#12 User is offline   phil_20686 

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Posted 2011-November-01, 19:15

I play 2N = shape asking relay, and 3c = asking for a club stop.


if you are, say, 2-3-5-3 as suggested in 2/1 I would bid 3c without a club stop and 2N if I had one, in both cases expecting to hear 3d with 3 card support. For me 2S guarantees 3S. If you are, say 1-3-6-3 you should bid 3d if your diamonds are good, this is still GF for me. If you are 1-3-5-4, then the 2N shape ask will uncover if partner has 3d, if he bids 3c to pattern out I would bid 3N. Thus you can use the shape ask with 55 minors. This is pretty normal 2/1 agreements where I play.
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#13 User is offline   phil_20686 

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Posted 2011-November-01, 19:18

 gnasher, on 2011-November-01, 13:11, said:

Instead of argung the merits of two imperfect methods, maybe it would be better to try to solve the underlying problem, which is that we have one more hand-type to show than we have bids available.

This appears to solve all the problems at small cost:

2♠ = 2353 or a notrump-oriented 2254, with or without a club stop
2NT = 3-card spade support
3♣ = natural


The problem hand seems to be 1-3-6-3 with poor diamonds, or 2-3-5-3 with reasonable diamnds and xxx clubs. Both of which could play much better in 5D opposite a 5-4-3-1 shape,
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#14 User is offline   aguahombre 

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Posted 2011-November-01, 19:34

How about, "yes"...it is natural or artificial. Opener continues with pattern, primarily; but with 5-4-2-2 only rebids 3NT with HX in clubs, otherwise bids 3D.

edit: with 5-4-0-4, opener doesn't get to raise clubs.

This post has been edited by aguahombre: 2011-November-01, 19:40

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#15 User is offline   MrAce 

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Posted 2011-November-01, 22:49

 kfay, on 2011-November-01, 11:39, said:

1♠-2♦
2♥-3♣

Natural or No? (2/1)


I agree with Aguaman

Does it really matter if it is artificial or natural for the opener, at this stage ?
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#16 User is offline   Free 

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Posted 2011-November-02, 04:14

ART

What's the need for this to be natural? Chances of a 4-4 ♣ fit are very small, responder can easily bid 2NT with stopper ♣ and then opener can pattern out. Without a ♣ stopper he can now bid 4th suit and opener knows what's going on.
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#17 User is offline   Zelandakh 

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Posted 2011-November-02, 05:36

From what I have seen, natural in USA (and perhaps Canada), artificial in most of the rest of the world. I prefer Free's approach here to back into the club fit when it is necessary but hide it when we are playing 3NT anyway. This seems to be the simplest way without playing some gadget to cope with otherwise awkward hands.
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#18 User is offline   TWO4BRIDGE 

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Posted 2011-November-02, 16:35

I say it is natural ( 3 or 4 cards ) and NO ♣-stop ( or a half-stop ) .

3C says: no 3s, no 4h, no 6d ... ergo: 2 3 5 3 or 2 3 4 4 .

[ With ♣-stop(s), you would have rebid some number of NT ] .
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#19 User is offline   Free 

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Posted 2011-November-03, 03:06

Partner can also have a poor 6 card suit which he doesn't want to bid. However, in that case he'll usually have ♠Hx (rebid 2♠) or a ♣ stopper (rebid 2NT). So I guess natural can make some sense, I just don't play it that way... :)
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#20 User is offline   kfay 

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Posted 2011-November-03, 12:41

The auction came up recently where I was bidding a hand with another forum member.

For him 3♣ was artificial, so he was forced to bid 2NT with Jx --- A109xxx AQJxx

I was 5422 so aside from some miscommunication that arose surrounding the 2N bid I thought the auction would have really sucked playing these methods and made it basically impossible to reach 6m (which is on) without blind guessing.

I realize this hand is less frequent than the hand that wants to bid 2NT. Still, it seems real screwed up to me that people can't bid clubs naturally (or at least confidently at some level) playing 'good' methods.

Maybe I'm coming around on this whole artificial business but I doubt I'll be playing it anytime soon (not because of this hand but just because of general principles).
Kevin Fay
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