[microcap]

We had two disasters in 8 hands with the same somewhat obscure problem.

First, Rex and I have had good success with the Rule of 22 for determining openers--- number of HCP+cards in 2 longest suits+ quick tricks =22 or more

But then Rex opened these two hands, neither of which I think is an opener [neither were opened in the other room] and both turned into bad results.

---

No way in Hades is this an opener IMO, but it does meet the rule.

Then this one:

---

This looks much more like an opener, but really, what do you gain with a 1♣ bid? I prefer to either pass or preempt myself.

Comments both general and specific?

Thanks in advance to all the usual suspects

[han]

Sorry, but this is the advanced/expert forum. If you don't realize how opening the second hand can gain, perhaps consider posting in a different forum.

[inquiry]

You allow for light openings that contain 22 points (Ace =4, King =3, Queen =2, Jack =1, plus one for each quick trick, plus one for each card in your two longest suit), then your partner opens with such a hand and you complain? If you don't like it, change your methods.

I have stopped pushing Zar points in this forum, but the first hand has 27 zar points (discount singleton jack). When holding 4+ ♠ he advocates opening one of a suit with 25 zar points (he does use weak twos with some such hands). The 2nd hand has 28 zar points (discount singleton jack) and is even clearer an opening bid.

While I think han's comment about understanding of the advantages of opening one of suit a little rough, I do have to agree that I don't understand specifically why this post is in the Advanced/Expert thread. The idea is not to post in that forum just to get responses from just advanced or expert players, but rather to post situations, hands, questions, where there might be two or more nearly equal decisions to pick between. Here, this is simply a hand evaluation question where you laid out the requirements to start with (22 your ranking points). The first had 22 by your own admission (I would have discounted the singleton jack, for 21), the 2nd has 23. Seems like your stated methods answer the question for you which raises the fair question of why is it here? Do you want people to question your methods rather than evaluate the fact that the 2nd hand is clearly, by any standard, a natural opening bid of 1♣?

[gnasher]

There's something wrong with your rule. Both of these hands are opening bids, but to get to 22 on the first one we have to treat the singleton jack as being worth a point.

[jdeegan]

gnasher, on 2011-September-19, 11:23, said:

There's something wrong with your rule.

I think this commentator said it all. Rules are to bidding as grammar is to literature.

[rhm]

han, on 2011-September-19, 09:04, said:

Sorry, but this is the advanced/expert forum. If you don't realize how opening the second hand can gain, perhaps consider posting in a different forum.

Sorry, but this is the advanced/expert forum. If you don't realize how opening the second hand can loose, perhaps consider replying to posters in different forums.

Rainer Herrmann

[phil_20686]

I would open either of these hands in first or second with 1C. In third I would probably bid 3C. Obviously this is vulnerability dependent.

[han]

rhm, on 2011-September-21, 05:10, said:

Sorry, but this is the advanced/expert forum. If you don't realize how opening the second hand can loose, perhaps consider replying to posters in different forums.

Rainer Herrmann

Sorry? I didn't even say whether I would open either hand. In the OP the question is asked how opening could possibly gain.

[the hog]

han, on 2011-September-19, 09:04, said:

Sorry, but this is the advanced/expert forum. If you don't realize how opening the second hand can gain, perhaps consider posting in a different forum.

I am inclined to agree with this. Not opening the second hand is a LOL.
The first hand is worth a 3C pre empt NV imo.

[Yu18772]

microcap, on 2011-September-19, 08:37, said:

We had two disasters in 8 hands with the same somewhat obscure problem.

First, Rex and I have had good success with the Rule of 22 for determining openers--- number of HCP+cards in 2 longest suits+ quick tricks =22 or more

But then Rex opened these two hands, neither of which I think is an opener [neither were opened in the other room] and both turned into bad results.

---

No way in Hades is this an opener IMO, but it does meet the rule.

Then this one:

---

This looks much more like an opener, but really, what do you gain with a 1♣ bid? I prefer to either pass or preempt myself.

Comments both general and specific?

Thanks in advance to all the usual suspects

I often play the rule of 20, and both hands qualify (in 3rd seat I would open the first hand as a preempt (3♣) rather than 1, and would be very tempted to this in 1st/2nd seat as well).
There is no explanation here on what went wrong subsequently to the opening, but I am not sure that would be the openers fault - if you play that rule you should bare such hands in mind when you bid, if you dont like it, dont play that rule.

[awm]

The second hand seems like a clear opener, with the solid clubs and 11 high. You have substantial playing strength for notrump or a black suit, and even a bit of fit for hearts. This is a much better hand than a lot of 12-counts that we'd all open without much thought.

I'd pass the first hand. Rule of 20 or 22 is okay if your points are in your suits, but you can't play an aggressive rule like this and also count points for singleton/doubleton honors and expect to come out ahead. This hand looks like a strong but non-solid six-card minor and basically nothing else of use; I am not in the habit of opening these kinds of hands at the one-level in 1st/2nd.

[Phil]

Id open both. The 1st isn't even a minimum for me.