[hotShot]

I'm with free, don't open a 10 looser hand.

If i have to bid, i bid 1NT, if Partners 5+ ♠ are good, there is a good change to get 5♠ and my 2 Acces. Since P has 6HCP in ♠ at the most, there must be something in the side suits.
So if we end up in 3NT and P does not have a♥ stop, we are down one.

Sh** happens....

[hrothgar]

Free, on Oct 4 2004, 03:16 PM, said:

So you have 6 controls. Do you have any possibilities for tricks? Your 3 Aces, and that's it...

As I said it depends on what system I play: in MOSCITO or any light opening system I'll open it without hesitation, and I'll take it as a propper hand, not garbage. However with this Vulnerability, scoring and playing 2/1, I don't feel the need to open this hand - 8 losers! Your partner will have 4 Kings and you'll go -3 in 3NT

Most players will open this hand anyway, and if I would've done it, I'll rebid 1NT now... I don't need a stop for a 1NT bid when I'm in front of the overcaller. Partner should realize this, and bid accordingly.

Once upon a time, I used to pass with three bullets, using the same reasoning as Free.
Three aces = three tricks, which didn't seem strong enough.

Over time, I kept track of my results. Passing consistantly lead to bad scores.
More specifically, those same aces that were only worth one trick in my hand were very powerful supporting partner's honors or as defensive tricks.

Today, I'd open the hand in question playing anything but Roth Stone.

[skorchev]

Free, on Oct 4 2004, 07:16 AM, said:

So you have 6 controls.  Do you have any possibilities for tricks?  Your 3 Aces, and that's it...

As I said it depends on what system I play: in MOSCITO or any light opening system I'll open it without hesitation, and I'll take it as a propper hand, not garbage.  However with this Vulnerability, scoring and playing 2/1, I don't feel the need to open this hand - 8 losers!  Your partner will have 4 Kings and you'll go -3 in 3NT 

Most players will open this hand anyway, and if I would've done it, I'll rebid 1NT now...  I don't need a stop for a 1NT bid when I'm in front of the overcaller.  Partner should realize this, and bid accordingly.

These are 3 ACES, how you can't PASS with that hand, that's CRAZY!!! Actually every A+A+K=5 controls should be opened, there are 6!

Quote

I open this hand 1♦ playing 2/1 without any regrets. I open it 1NT playing weak notrump without any regrets. It is true aces are worth only "one trick" but they also command the suit, winning that trick when it is most advantageous to our side. Change one of the aces to a king? I still open 1D or 1NT... :-)

Ben

I absolutely AGREE with Ben!


Stefan

[cherdano]

What happened at the table? I chose 1NT.
You will not be suprised to hear that partner had ♠KJxxx ♥JT ♦KQJ ♣KJx, that we ended up in 3NT (after 2♣-2♠- 3NT-P), and that LHO took the first 5 tricks with his ♥AKQxx.

[joker_gib]

Partner had to verify your ♥ stopper !

[Free]

See how nice this goes if you'd pass in first instance? Partner opens 1NT and you'll also end up in 3NT, but this time your RHO will have to lead, and I don't think he'll find this ♥ lead as fast as your LHO...

[cherdano]

joker_gib, on Oct 8 2004, 10:46 AM, said:

Partner had to verify your ♥ stopper !

As we had not discussed this situation, I think I agree with partner's bidding. When he asks for a stopper, and I have Qxx, I might not show this as stopper "a second time", although he has excellent help for that. Additionally, the bad spade suit is not really an attractive alternative, and his hand is very notrump-ish.

[cherdano]

Free, on Oct 8 2004, 11:36 AM, said:

See how nice this goes if you'd pass in first instance? Partner opens 1NT and you'll also end up in 3NT, but this time your RHO will have to lead, and I don't think he'll find this ♥ lead as fast as your LHO...

If LHO cooperates with this plan by passing, that is.

[jdulmage]

2♣ all day. Can't take a chance in 1NT until you know there is a stopper.

[han]

Free, on Oct 4 2004, 07:16 AM, said:

Your partner will have 4 Kings and you'll go -3 in 3NT 

I won't use letters as large as some others, but note that if partner has Kxxx Kxx Kxx Kxx, then you do have play for 3NT (thanks to your 5-card diamond suit). And for me, this flat 12 count isn't even worth a game force.

The idea that aces and spaces are bad has been corrected a long time ago. Also, counting losers doesn't work unless your partner is using bad hand evaluation too.

[junyi_zhu]

hrothgar, on Oct 4 2004, 03:56 PM, said:

Free, on Oct 4 2004, 03:16 PM, said:

So you have 6 controls.  Do you have any possibilities for tricks?  Your 3 Aces, and that's it...

As I said it depends on what system I play: in MOSCITO or any light opening system I'll open it without hesitation, and I'll take it as a propper hand, not garbage.  However with this Vulnerability, scoring and playing 2/1, I don't feel the need to open this hand - 8 losers!  Your partner will have 4 Kings and you'll go -3 in 3NT 

Most players will open this hand anyway, and if I would've done it, I'll rebid 1NT now...  I don't need a stop for a 1NT bid when I'm in front of the overcaller.  Partner should realize this, and bid accordingly.

Once upon a time, I used to pass with three bullets, using the same reasoning as Free.
Three aces = three tricks, which didn't seem strong enough.

Over time, I kept track of my results. Passing consistantly lead to bad scores.
More specifically, those same aces that were only worth one trick in my hand were very powerful supporting partner's honors or as defensive tricks.

Today, I'd open the hand in question playing anything but Roth Stone.

three aces are strong holdings. Even if the shape is 4-3-3-3, the total losers are way less than 9 due to good controls. you can deduct about 1.5 loser which gives you about 7.5 losers and is OK to open. I agree with you, passing 3 aces is losing bridge for sure and if you pass, you can never catch up again. Also for the given hand, it's even stronger than 4-3-3-3, and it's a marginal hand to bid 3NT facing a 2NT invitation, if you bid 3NT over 2NT, you often have some reasonable play facing good 11 or so so 12 especially when partner holds some fillers in diamonds.

[junyi_zhu]

cherdano, on Oct 3 2004, 06:35 PM, said:

Scoring: MP

1♦-(1♥)-1♠-(PASS)
-?

---

You are playing 2/1, and 1♠ by partner is 100% forcing and shows 5+ spades.

Do you have the agreement that 1NT does not imply a stopper? If so, will partner ask for stoppers on the way to 3NT?

2C is a huge distortion. 1NT is actually the only bid for this hand. 2C is unlimited, and you may have a lot of stronger hand types and partner tend to keep bidding alive over 2C. If he bids 3C, you probably would go down two in a 4-3 fit and facing a 9 count. If you bid 1NT, you'd probably play there in such situations. Also, it's a long misunderstanding that 1NT need a stopper, which shouldn't. You have a lot of bidding room over 1NT to check if you really have a stopper. 1NT just defines the hand well, stopper issue is never a big problem unless you try for game, in that case you still have cuebids, new suits available to show that you don't have a stopper. A lot of this kindof situations in bidding and I have seen too many players found themselves playing unmakable games or slams due to the distortion in the very beginning. Another thing I want to mention, this hand is probably right to bid 2NT over 1D 2H 2S, because you still have room to explore.
And it's marginal to bid 3NT over 1D 3H 3S 3N but it can often be right to bid it.
Your partner may have a stopper sometimes or heart may be blocked or opps may try to be cute not to lead H from AQJxxxx and found you have 9 cashing tricks. The extension of Hamman's law (you can say it's Zhu's Law) is, when NT is a possible bid, bid it.

[HeartA]

I would rebid 2D without second thought. In my system, 1D-1X-2C requires 4+ clubs.

"Partner should confirm H stopper later", why? 1N already says H stopper.

On another thread, some even suggested to open 1D and rebid 2C with A, Kxx, Kxxx, AJ9xx. And if you also open 1D and then 2C with this one, partner would have no idea which minor to support. If partner holds something like Kxxx, xxx, Kx, Jxxx, he would pass 2C.

[junyi_zhu]

HeartA, on Oct 18 2004, 05:36 PM, said:

I would rebid 2D without second thought. In my system, 1D-1X-2C requires 4+ clubs.

"Partner should confirm H stopper later", why? 1N already says H stopper.

On another thread, some even suggested to open 1D and rebid 2C with A, Kxx, Kxxx, AJ9xx. And if you also open 1D and then 2C with this one, partner would have no idea which minor to support. If partner holds something like Kxxx, xxx, Kx, Jxxx, he would pass 2C.

because 1NT doesn't have to guarantee a stopper in hearts and you have plenty of room to check if opener has a stopper later. And the most important thing is that 1NT shows your hand's strength and shape perfectly. 2D is bad, because 2D usually shows 6 diamonds and should show 6 diamonds here. You have bypassed 2C/1NT and you don't raise 2S, so 2D should be 6.

[HeartA]

junyi_zhu, on Oct 18 2004, 01:01 PM, said:

because 1NT doesn't have to guarantee a stopper in hearts and you have plenty of room to check if opener has a stopper later. And the most important thing is that 1NT shows your hand's strength and shape perfectly. 2D is bad, because 2D usually shows 6 diamonds and should show 6 diamonds here. You have bypassed 2C/1NT and you don't raise 2S, so 2D should be 6.

2D simply says, 1) no heart stopper, 2) unable to support s (doubleton or 3 small), 3) no 4 card club. 4) d is biddable (5-card with honor(s)).

Since 1D only guarantees 4 (even could be 3 with 4=4=3=2), why can't I rebid a 5-card d when I have 5 leading by A?. When u have 3=3=4=3 without any honor in d, you still open 1D, don't you? Who says 2D has to be 6 cards? The only drawback is when partner has a weak 4-3-1-5 (or the like) and c fit will be missed.

[Fluffy]

2♦ rebid: unbalanced hand with no 4 card outside suit biddable.

Since partner bids 1♠, 2♦ rebid should be 6+ ♦ unnless you have 4♥.

[luke warm]

i was taught long ago, and it was later "verified" by bergen and other theorists, that rebidding a minor showed a 6 card suit... there's almost always a better bid available... on the hands i've seen, i usually open 1d when 4/5 in minors *unless* my hand is strong enough to reverse

[HeartA]

Bergen is a great theorist, but that does not mean everything he says is always correct (When two great theorists have conflict, who is right?). SQxxxx can be opened and rebid as mentioned on another thread (QTxxx, xx, Ax, KQxx), yet to rebid 2D has to have 6 cards? I don't buy it.

When 1NT in this position guarantees stopper, partner can bid 3N with jxxx, Qx, KQx, KQxx with confidence. Otherwise, you have to go through some gadgets to launch to 3NT. If you play with partner without deep discussion, you will get confused and ....

To me, 2D is the simplest and yet clear call.

I will have a real difficulty to pick a rebid when I have AK, 8653, Axxx, Qxx with the same sequence (1D-(1H)-1S-(P)-?).

[junyi_zhu]

HeartA, on Oct 19 2004, 01:19 AM, said:

Bergen is a great theorist, but that does not mean everything he says is always correct (When two great theorists have conflict, who is right?). SQxxxx can be opened and rebid as mentioned on another thread (QTxxx, xx, Ax, KQxx), yet to rebid 2D has to have 6 cards? I don't buy it.

When 1NT in this position guarantees stopper, partner can bid 3N with jxxx, Qx, KQx, KQxx with confidence. Otherwise, you have to go through some gadgets to launch to 3NT. If you play with partner without deep discussion, you will get confused and ....

To me, 2D is the simplest and yet clear call.

I will have a real difficulty to pick a rebid when I have AK, 8653, Axxx, Qxx with the same sequence (1D-(1H)-1S-(P)-?).

well, it's totally different from the 2 spade rebidding issue. For that 2S rebid part, your partner has already made a two over one bid, thus many play 2S as one round waiting which is forcing. For this hand, partner only bids at one level and you still have an easy 1NT to bid, so it's really no good to rebid 2D which takes up a lot of space and gives you no safety. Also, this 2D can be as good as bad 16, which is not as limited as 1NT is.

[HeartA]

junyi_zhu, on Oct 18 2004, 09:59 PM, said:

well, it's totally different from the 2 spade rebidding issue. For that 2S rebid part, your partner has already made a two over one bid, thus many play 2S as one round waiting which is forcing. For this hand, partner only bids at one level and you still have an easy 1NT to bid, so it's really no good to rebid 2D which takes up a lot of space and gives you no safety. Also, this 2D can be as good as bad 16, which is not as limited as 1NT is.

Of course they are different. The point I want to make is, 5-card suit is rebiddable.