This didn't work: Assess the blame
#2
Posted 2011-March-10, 16:27
I might have doubled as West too so I shouldn't be too critical, but if we are going to double on a 10 count it would be nice to have more sharp card in the majors instead of a bunch of quacks.
If West doubles and East bids 2NT, should 3♣ show a strong hand, or would it be analogous to a 1-level double then 2m over partners 1NT? I have never discussed this so would assume it was strong, but maybe it should show this hand? Still, even 3♣ might be -200, so West has to get a fair amount of blame too.
#3
Posted 2011-March-10, 16:29
inquiry, on 2011-March-10, 16:06, said:
I guess it goes without saying that 3NT was not a huge sucesses. Should South double? What should North bid if south does double. How would you bid the EW hands after a weak two diamond bid.
IMO making TOX with the West hand is like preempting over a preempt!
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#4
Posted 2011-March-10, 17:24
655321, on 2011-March-10, 16:27, said:
I might have doubled as West too so I shouldn't be too critical, but if we are going to double on a 10 count it would be nice to have more sharp card in the majors instead of a bunch of quacks.
If West doubles and East bids 2NT, should 3♣ show a strong hand, or would it be analogous to a 1-level double then 2m over partners 1NT? I have never discussed this so would assume it was strong, but maybe it should show this hand? Still, even 3♣ might be -200, so West has to get a fair amount of blame too.
2NT would not be lebehnshol over 2♦x.
Three clubs, however, would be forcing. Should it be, is in fact, a good question.
#5
Posted 2011-March-10, 17:38
#6
Posted 2011-March-10, 18:01
I play Lebensohl here and I'm surprised others do not, so 2N isn't an option for me.
I would pass. If partner has a minimum takeout double I expect 200 most of the time. My bigger concern isn't that 2♦ is making, its earning 500 against 600 in a making 3N. However, I would expect to get 800 against 2♦ a fair amount of the time when this is the case. If we give up -180 - next board.
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#7
Posted 2011-March-10, 18:10
If 2NT is natural, I bid that, obviously. There's not much point in playing it as natural if you're not going to bid it on this.
This post has been edited by gnasher: 2011-March-10, 18:12
#8
Posted 2011-March-10, 19:44
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#9
Posted 2011-March-10, 21:48
N/S should just enjoy their plus after E/W get to this horrible contract. E/W should probably let them play in 2♦.
wyman, on 2012-May-04, 09:48, said:
rbforster, on 2012-May-20, 21:04, said:
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#10
Posted 2011-March-10, 22:29
inquiry, on 2011-March-10, 16:06, said:
I guess it goes without saying that 3NT was not a huge sucesses. Should South double? What should North bid if south does double. How would you bid the EW hands after a weak two diamond bid.
West should realize that not only is his hand light for the takeout, but the cards are in the wrong places. S figures to be short in the majors, and hence there will most likely be ♥ and ♠ honors over his spindly suits. If his partner has any ♦ honors they will be in the wrong place as well.
If there is anything in the hand for E-W, East will reopen.
#11
Posted 2011-March-10, 22:36
#12
Posted 2011-March-10, 23:05
The double is fine. In fact I would consider it a clear error to pass with that hand. Very often partner will have four cards in one major and shortness in the other so be unable to act even with decent values.
Pass by East is possible but 3NT will often be the normal contract and we are risking a bottom by passing.
#13
Posted 2011-March-11, 01:35
aguahombre, on 2011-March-10, 22:36, said:
"Must" is too strong, but the principle you state is sound.
Quote
Yes, it's certainly a good idea for a partnership to discuss the strengths of their bids.
#14
Posted 2011-March-11, 01:47
Phil, on 2011-March-10, 18:01, said:
I play Lebensohl here and I'm surprised others do not, so 2N isn't an option for me.
Perhaps you and Gnasher should speak to Justin Lall.
By the way, I pass the posted hand.
#15
Posted 2011-March-11, 06:15
#16
Posted 2011-March-11, 09:03
inquiry, on 2011-March-10, 17:24, said:
Three clubs, however, would be forcing. Should it be, is in fact, a good question.
2NT is part of the Lebensohl Convention over partner's DBL of a weak-2D.
( 2D ) - X - ( p ) - 2NT!( strongly encourages 3C )
( p ) - 3C! - ( p ) - 3NT = slow-shows BOTH 4 card Majors; NT bid indicates ♦-stop(s)
whereas:
( 2D ) - X - ( p ) - 3NT = direct-denies any 4 card Major; NT bid indicates ♦-stop(s)
And if Advancer has only ONE 4 card Major:
direct 2M = 0 - 6 hcp
slow 3M = 7,8 hcp
direct 3M-jump = 9,10 hcp
direct 4M-jump = good 11+
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Now for the deal shown, West has to bite his tongue and PASS hoping that partner can make a T/O DBL.
East with a 3 3 4 3 balanced 11 hcp, and no 4 card Major can't DBL either.
Who says a Weak-2D open is not effective ?
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
TWOferBRIDGE
"imo by far in bridge the least understood concept is how to bid over a jump-shift
( 1M-1NT!-3m-?? )." ....Justin Lall
" Did someone mention relays? " .... Zelandakh
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#17
Posted 2011-March-11, 10:13
In light of a couple similar threads I tend to put more blame on the 3NT bidder, since we see a lot of shapely 11/12/13 counts taking action over weak twos. If 3NT bidder had only one diamond stopper (as in the 3-3-4-3 hand with K8xx diamonds in the other thread) it'd be easier to blame him, but AQxx does look mighty nice.
The idea of "Lebensohl only over 2M" is new to me (I've had a lot of partners ask to play leb over weak twos, and never had anyone mention the possibility of treating 2D differently from 2M), and I can see a case for it. Though in my book, one of the great values of Leb, Good/Bad, and other such conventions is that it removes the temptation to make a 2NT bid which is always going to be the wrong contract anyway
#18
Posted 2011-March-11, 11:36
#19
Posted 2011-March-11, 11:36
One advantage of playing lebensohl is that you can sort out the major-suited hands nicely, which can be important for getting to your fit:
- immediate jump to 3M = invitational with a 5-card suit
- 2NT followed by 3M = invitational with a 4-card suit
- immediate cue = game forcing in some manner (usually at least 1 4-card major)
- 2NT followed by 3D = invitational with 4-4 in the majors
- 2NT followed by 3NT = doubt (usually with a club suit)
- immediate 3NT = certainty
I guess it goes without saying that 3NT was not a huge sucesses. Should South double? What should North bid if south does double. How would you bid the EW hands after a weak two diamond bid.