[inquiry]

Matchpoints. 2♦ was a weak two.

I guess it goes without saying that 3NT was not a huge sucesses. Should South double? What should North bid if south does double. How would you bid the EW hands after a weak two diamond bid.

---

[655321]

I do think that 3NT is an overbid, 2NT (unless East plays in the same club as hog where 2NT is Lebensohl!) looks normal.

I might have doubled as West too so I shouldn't be too critical, but if we are going to double on a 10 count it would be nice to have more sharp card in the majors instead of a bunch of quacks.

If West doubles and East bids 2NT, should 3♣ show a strong hand, or would it be analogous to a 1-level double then 2m over partners 1NT? I have never discussed this so would assume it was strong, but maybe it should show this hand? Still, even 3♣ might be -200, so West has to get a fair amount of blame too.

[pooltuna]

inquiry, on 2011-March-10, 16:06, said:

Matchpoints. 2♦ was a weak two.

I guess it goes without saying that 3NT was not a huge sucesses. Should South double? What should North bid if south does double. How would you bid the EW hands after a weak two diamond bid.

---

IMO making TOX with the West hand is like preempting over a preempt!

[inquiry]

655321, on 2011-March-10, 16:27, said:

I do think that 3NT is an overbid, 2NT (unless East plays in the same club as hog where 2NT is Lebensohl!) looks normal.

I might have doubled as West too so I shouldn't be too critical, but if we are going to double on a 10 count it would be nice to have more sharp card in the majors instead of a bunch of quacks.

If West doubles and East bids 2NT, should 3♣ show a strong hand, or would it be analogous to a 1-level double then 2m over partners 1NT? I have never discussed this so would assume it was strong, but maybe it should show this hand? Still, even 3♣ might be -200, so West has to get a fair amount of blame too.

2NT would not be lebehnshol over 2♦x.

Three clubs, however, would be forcing. Should it be, is in fact, a good question.

[straube]

I think the TOX is right. I like 2N if it's natural, but 3N is reasonable.

[Phil]

I don't love the takeout double, but I like selling out to 2♦ with a 4405 less.

I play Lebensohl here and I'm surprised others do not, so 2N isn't an option for me.

I would pass. If partner has a minimum takeout double I expect 200 most of the time. My bigger concern isn't that 2♦ is making, its earning 500 against 600 in a making 3N. However, I would expect to get 800 against 2♦ a fair amount of the time when this is the case. If we give up -180 - next board.

[gnasher]

I think the takeout double is normal, and I think it's normal to play to play Lebensohl in reply. With the East hand, I'd pass 2♦x. Looking at the two hands, I expect that makes, but -180 will beat all the -200s from 3NT.

If 2NT is natural, I bid that, obviously. There's not much point in playing it as natural if you're not going to bid it on this.

This post has been edited by gnasher: 2011-March-10, 18:12

[andy_h]

I agree that the takeout double over 2D is normal. If West passes 2D and the auction goes (2D)-pass-(3D)-passed back to you, have you discussed what double means now? I also bid 2NT natural over the takeout double.

[Hanoi5]

85% to West, 15% to East. I don't think west should double with that hand in the direct position. I bet east could bid 2NT if it is natural.

N/S should just enjoy their plus after E/W get to this horrible contract. E/W should probably let them play in 2♦.

[dlbalt]

inquiry, on 2011-March-10, 16:06, said:

Matchpoints. 2♦ was a weak two.

I guess it goes without saying that 3NT was not a huge sucesses. Should South double? What should North bid if south does double. How would you bid the EW hands after a weak two diamond bid.

---

West should realize that not only is his hand light for the takeout, but the cards are in the wrong places. S figures to be short in the majors, and hence there will most likely be ♥ and ♠ honors over his spindly suits. If his partner has any ♦ honors they will be in the wrong place as well.

If there is anything in the hand for E-W, East will reopen.

[aguahombre]

same theme...over and over. People MUST get in there, with sub values, because they are the one short in the opener's suit. But CHO is supposed to be in on the joke. See other thread, where advancer has even less and 3NT is the sensible action.

[nigel_k]

No blame, just bad luck.

The double is fine. In fact I would consider it a clear error to pass with that hand. Very often partner will have four cards in one major and shortness in the other so be unable to act even with decent values.

Pass by East is possible but 3NT will often be the normal contract and we are risking a bottom by passing.

[gnasher]

aguahombre, on 2011-March-10, 22:36, said:

same theme...over and over. People MUST get in there, with sub values, because they are the one short in the opener's suit.

"Must" is too strong, but the principle you state is sound.

Quote

But CHO is supposed to be in on the joke.

Yes, it's certainly a good idea for a partnership to discuss the strengths of their bids.

[the hog]

Phil, on 2011-March-10, 18:01, said:

I play Lebensohl here and I'm surprised others do not, so 2N isn't an option for me.

Perhaps you and Gnasher should speak to Justin Lall.

By the way, I pass the posted hand.

[Free]

Both have overbid their hands, result is pretty obvious.

[TWO4BRIDGE]

inquiry, on 2011-March-10, 17:24, said:

2NT would not be lebehnshol over 2♦x.

Three clubs, however, would be forcing. Should it be, is in fact, a good question.

2NT is part of the Lebensohl Convention over partner's DBL of a weak-2D.

( 2D ) - X - ( p ) - 2NT!( strongly encourages 3C )
( p ) - 3C! - ( p ) - 3NT = slow-shows BOTH 4 card Majors; NT bid indicates ♦-stop(s)

whereas:
( 2D ) - X - ( p ) - 3NT = direct-denies any 4 card Major; NT bid indicates ♦-stop(s)

And if Advancer has only ONE 4 card Major:
direct 2M = 0 - 6 hcp
slow 3M = 7,8 hcp
direct 3M-jump = 9,10 hcp
direct 4M-jump = good 11+

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Now for the deal shown, West has to bite his tongue and PASS hoping that partner can make a T/O DBL.
East with a 3 3 4 3 balanced 11 hcp, and no 4 card Major can't DBL either.

Who says a Weak-2D open is not effective ?
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

[Siegmund]

Two modest overbids on the same hand usually results in a bottom, with no one person to blame for the disaster.

In light of a couple similar threads I tend to put more blame on the 3NT bidder, since we see a lot of shapely 11/12/13 counts taking action over weak twos. If 3NT bidder had only one diamond stopper (as in the 3-3-4-3 hand with K8xx diamonds in the other thread) it'd be easier to blame him, but AQxx does look mighty nice.

The idea of "Lebensohl only over 2M" is new to me (I've had a lot of partners ask to play leb over weak twos, and never had anyone mention the possibility of treating 2D differently from 2M), and I can see a case for it. Though in my book, one of the great values of Leb, Good/Bad, and other such conventions is that it removes the temptation to make a 2NT bid which is always going to be the wrong contract anyway

[xxhong]

West is certainly very light for the take out and east is also rather light for the 3NT. I think this is the price you have to pay if you want to make light takeout doubles against preempts, you gotta end up in some unpleasant 3NTs. Also, that's the price you have to pay to play leb because you gotta end up in some bad 3NTs facing a distributional minimum. Nobody really likes the convention leb. However, it is often worse not to play it. I don't think there will be a solution in the future to handle the sequence against preemptive bids very effectively. That's just a life of bridge players. Of course, if you want to avoid more bad 3NTs, you can tight up your take out double a little bit. For the hand listed, the control is rather bad. So it is probably avoidable if you pass 2D. The general idea is still that you have to pay for opp's preemptive bids. So really, one should preempt a lot more than most players do at 2 level IMO, especially when white.

[FrancesHinden]

Not playing lebensohl, 2NT looks normal on the East cards. Playing lebensohl, I'd pass out 2Dx along with gnasher.

One advantage of playing lebensohl is that you can sort out the major-suited hands nicely, which can be important for getting to your fit:
- immediate jump to 3M = invitational with a 5-card suit
- 2NT followed by 3M = invitational with a 4-card suit
- immediate cue = game forcing in some manner (usually at least 1 4-card major)
- 2NT followed by 3D = invitational with 4-4 in the majors
- 2NT followed by 3NT = doubt (usually with a club suit)
- immediate 3NT = certainty

[whereagles]

blame preemptor