[JLOGIC]

(1N) p (p) 2H
(2S) X

What should double mean? What would you assume undiscussed with a random real expert?

If it matters all you play is 2C = majors in both seats.

[TWO4BRIDGE]

What does a DBL mean in Direct seat over (1NT ) ?

[mtvesuvius]

TWO4BRIDGE, on 2011-January-13, 20:13, said:

What does a DBL mean in Direct seat over (1NT ) ?

I assume direct over 1N is penalty, since he said they only play 2♣ for the majors, and nothing else.

I would think this X is penalty though, maybe it shouldn't be, but it seems like opener could be facing complete trash, and this double confirms that he is. 2N is a heart raise I guess though, so you're kind of stuck with just general values or competitive with minors etc...

Maybe it should be values and takeout oriented... But sitting over the spade hand, and given the situation I think it is penalty.

[wank]

penalty. easy. rho may have pony

[pooltuna]

mtvesuvius, on 2011-January-13, 20:21, said:

I assume direct over 1N is penalty, since he said they only play 2♣ for the majors, and nothing else.

I would think this X is penalty though, maybe it shouldn't be, but it seems like opener could be facing complete trash, and this double confirms that he is. 2N is a heart raise I guess though, so you're kind of stuck with just general values or competitive with minors etc...

Maybe it should be values and takeout oriented... But sitting over the spade hand, and given the situation I think it is penalty.

Okay let's see what would be a really stupid meaning for this X....aha it must be a support double BTW I really agree with penalty not sure I see any other way to tell the 1NT opener he made an error bidding his 5 card suit

[Cascade]

Takeout is much more useful. I reckon we are about twice as likely to have a hand with length in the minors rather than a spade stack especially when we consider we might have bid with some of the hands that have a spade stack. While responder's lack of action does not guarantee spades it suggests a balanced hand reasonably often.

With a random expert completely undiscussed I have no idea. With some discussion it may depend how many takeout and penalty doubles you play in other situations.

[Phil]

I'm over the bidder. Its penalty. I realize that if I held the minors I might like to have a double, but perhaps 2N can show that hand type.

[rogerclee]

I think it should just be penalty.

2S is inherently risky, since opener can never really have a great hand and is always opening themselves up to a significant number by bidding. This is not exactly an auction where opener can have unexpected extra offense, and our speculative defensive tricks are more likely to cash.

Also at matchpoints I don't think we need that much to double them.

As long as we are talking about how things should be played, we can do

1N P P 2H
2S ?

X = penalty
2N = 3m bid in either minor
3C = minors
3D = strong heart raise
3H = weak heart raise

[655321]

For me this double is always takeout (by default) but that meaning doesn't seem so useful here. Either penalty or game try seem more useful. Although, having said that, since we have no methods maybe partner doesn't have a 6 card suit but is something like 5431, then the takeout double might get us to a reasonable 3m contract.

[nigel_k]

For me it is takeout.

I don't know how people manage with these agreements where each partner gets to decide what they think should be logical on the given auction. It just seems like a recipe for disaster. If the alternative to always takeout is that double over the bidder is always penalty then I think that is a long-run loser, even if a penalty double on this specific sequence is ok.

What about 1NT-P-P-2♥-P-P-2♠-X?

[karlson]

I think it's probably right to play penalty and would assume that with a random expert.

But if I had discussed 1♠-p-p-2♥-2♠-x as takeout (which I think is good and about which we had about a 50/50 split iirc), I would take this one to be takeout too; the auctions look too similar.

[JLOGIC]

655321, on 2011-January-13, 23:13, said:

For me this double is always takeout (by default) but that meaning doesn't seem so useful here. Either penalty or game try seem more useful. Although, having said that, since we have no methods maybe partner doesn't have a 6 card suit but is something like 5431, then the takeout double might get us to a reasonable 3m contract.

I think with a game try we would bid 2N. Of course, what is 2N is part of this problem. Bessis recommended X=penalty, 2N=minors or game try in hearts which has some issues also but takes care of a lot of situations.

I had this hand against Fred and Geoff Hampson in a GNT match a while ago. I pulled my partner's double to 4H, I don't remember my hand but I think I was 1732 or something with strong hearts. I thought X was takeout and that it was obvious based on general rules, but almost all experts thought it was penalty. Of course my partner doubled slowly, and I felt awful because I basically took advantage of UI and against 2 of my good friends no less... After my brief poll I told the directors that I was wrong that X is takeout. There was also the question of if I should pull a *penalty* double with my hand anyways, and also how many down 2S X was. Luckily none of it mattered, and my opps were understanding!

I didn't post it at the time because I didn't want it to be a UI case discussion, I fully believe that I was wrong, but I did want some discussion on what is the best practical agreement to have on this auction. Takeout still makes a lot of sense to me, but so does penalty. I feel like all normal bidding rules make this takeout, we could have a fit in any suit still, both hands have a wide range of shapes, and the 2H bidder will often reopen over 2S with a double if he is short there. It seems weird to me that this one is penalty by default, but I know that I am the weird one here!

Edit: And by the way, my partner had a penalty double. He was very strong with 4 spades and 3 hearts and the vul was good IIRC. This of course is a strong argument that at least one in my partnership thought double was penalty!

This post has been edited by JLOGIC: 2011-January-14, 05:46

[dake50]

Defaults to T/O for me as undiscussed exception for low-level doubles.
I think that's not optimum. Gotta talk this one out.

[paulg]

At the table my first thought would be primarily takeout, especially when you cannot show a major-minor two-suited hand. Perhaps I could be persuaded that it is more transferable values with something in spades and you can pass it with a suitable hand, but I'd never be passing with seven hearts.

[gnasher]

I agree with Nigel_K about the merits of having rules to cover this sort of situation. According to my preferred rules:
- If we had a way to show a major-minor two-suiter, partner would be known to have a defined one-suiter, and double would be penalties.
- Given that we don't, partner may have a variety of shapes, so double is for takeout.
- In either case, we have no cue-bid, so 2NT shows a good raise.

Without discussion, I'd probably try to guess from my shape and anything I could glean from RHO's manner. With 1-7 in the majors, it seems likely that it's for penalties.

Quote

I thought X was takeout and that it was obvious based on general rules, but almost all experts thought it was penalty. Of course my partner doubled slowly, and I felt awful because I basically took advantage of UI

You had no reason to feel awful - at the time, your judgement was that pass was not a logical alternative. It's not improper to misjudge (if that's what you did).

[OleBerg]

If I know nothing else about my partner, I'd expect penalty. The logic behind this would be, that partners hand is well-described.

If I had the chance to make an agreement, take-out would be my choice, especially if 1NT is 15-17 and the opponents are not known jokers.

At MP's, BAM etc, and the opp. red, I'd prefer penalty.

[gnasher]

gnasher, on 2011-January-14, 08:31, said:

You had no reason to feel awful - at the time, your judgement was that pass was not a logical alternative. It's not improper to misjudge (if that's what you did).

Edit: On rereading that, I realise that "if that's what you did" might be read in more than one way. I meant that it's not clear that your original judgement was wrong.

[TWO4BRIDGE]

What was double ?

A mistake, that's what... since he held 3 cards in partner's suit.

2H had to be of some length ( at least 6 cards ) which would mean the Responder conceivably had shortness there.

If the Doubler had such a good hand, but not worthy of an immediate penalty DBL, he could have raised to 3H or 4H ( with Spade tricks behind Opener).

I can see a penalty double w/o Ht support ... ( So in answer to your question, the belated DBL WAS for penalty ).
As it was, 2SX might have made or maybe be off only 1 when 3H or 4H makes.

[peachy]

I would assume penalty. In unclear /undiscussed situations, when the Dbl is behind the bid and it could be penalty, it "is" penalty.

[xxhong]

I think it's a penalty double. In my opinion, a take-out double can only be made when partner is allowed to pass with some certain hand types. Here, 2H denies S length.