[gwnn]

R/W imps!

xxxx
xxx
xx
xxxx

(1♦)-1NT-(x)-?

you can either bid 2♣ clubs and another or pass.

1♦ could have been as short as two cards (11-15)

[lmilne]

run forrest run

[manudude03]

run forrest, run faster.

[gnasher]

What would be the point of agreeing that 2♣ showed clubs and another if I wasn't going to use it on this hand?

[nige1]

Bumper Sticker Guy: [running after Forrest] Hey man! Hey listen, I was wondering if you might help me. 'Cause I'm in the bumper sticker business and I've been trying to think of a good slogan, and since you've been such a big inspiration to the people around here I thought you might be able to help me jump into - WOAH! Man, you just ran through a big pile of dog *****!
Forrest Gump: It happens.
Bumper Sticker guy: What, *****?
Forrest Gump: Sometimes.

[kenrexford]

Just out of curiosity, what kind of hand does pass show? What does a reopening XX by partner show after this?

The potential upside to a 2♣ call seems obvious.

The downside, however, is that partner might have six diamonds or five hearts and end up in the wrong contract if you bid 2♣.

Pass gets you to the right contract anyway if partner is expected to bid here and elects clubs or spades. So, pass only might hurt if partner bids 2D or 2H. If partner never bids 2♥ in this sequence, then only 2♦ causes problems, and that might not be a problem if he only bids 2♦ with five of them, as there may be no better fit anyway, in that event.

In other words, the fact that I have 4-4 in clubs and spades does not automatically mean that I should show a two-suited hand with 4-4 in the two suits.

[jdonn]

kenrexford, on Aug 17 2010, 07:19 PM, said:

Just out of curiosity, what kind of hand does pass show? What does a reopening XX by partner show after this?

The potential upside to a 2♣ call seems obvious.

The downside, however, is that partner might have six diamonds or five hearts and end up in the wrong contract if you bid 2♣.

Pass gets you to the right contract anyway if partner is expected to bid here and elects clubs or spades. So, pass only might hurt if partner bids 2D or 2H. If partner never bids 2♥ in this sequence, then only 2♦ causes problems, and that might not be a problem if he only bids 2♦ with five of them, as there may be no better fit anyway, in that event.

In other words, the fact that I have 4-4 in clubs and spades does not automatically mean that I should show a two-suited hand with 4-4 in the two suits.

But consider if you bid 2♣ LHO might double. That would help a lot in two ways:
- Partner could bid his own suit now or elect to hear our other suit, giving us the most options possible.
- If partner redoubles to get us out of 2♣ we could show just about our exact shape (bid 2♦ then redouble to suggest both majors with better spades).

[the hog]

2C

[Free]

The_Hog, on Aug 18 2010, 08:07 AM, said:

2C

I couldn't have said it better.

[kenrexford]

jdonn, on Aug 17 2010, 07:22 PM, said:

kenrexford, on Aug 17 2010, 07:19 PM, said:

Just out of curiosity, what kind of hand does pass show?  What does a reopening XX by partner show after this?

The potential upside to a 2♣ call seems obvious.

The downside, however, is that partner might have six diamonds or five hearts and end up in the wrong contract if you bid 2♣.

Pass gets you to the right contract anyway if partner is expected to bid here and elects clubs or spades.  So, pass only might hurt if partner bids 2D or 2H.  If partner never bids 2♥ in this sequence, then only 2♦ causes problems, and that might not be a problem if he only bids 2♦ with five of them, as there may be no better fit anyway, in that event.

In other words, the fact that I have 4-4 in clubs and spades does not automatically mean that I should show a two-suited hand with 4-4 in the two suits.

But consider if you bid 2♣ LHO might double. That would help a lot in two ways:
- Partner could bid his own suit now or elect to hear our other suit, giving us the most options possible.
- If partner redoubles to get us out of 2♣ we could show just about our exact shape (bid 2♦ then redouble to suggest both majors with better spades).

Yeah, but if I pass, Opener might bid. If Opener doesn't bid, Partner might redouble. If partner redouibles, and I then bid 2♣, that might be doubled, and then I get to show even MORE detail.

I'm just saying, the escape scenario is not particularly obvious unless one goes through the entire structure of possible developments.

[rogerclee]

IF YOU PASS, YOUR PARTNER IS GOING TO DECLARE 1NT DOUBLED

[helene_t]

Lol Ken, what are you smoking?

[kenrexford]

Partner is NOT going to play 1NT doubled unless pass means "Let's play it here." That's why I asked what Opener's options are. Some people play things like Moscow Escapes, where 1NTX is not an allowed final contract.

[manudude03]

I'd like to think if there were other ways to describe this hand, it would have been mentioned... As far as I am concerned (and everyone else it seems) is that there are no other ways to describe this hand, they would either be a complete lie or ends in partner declaring 1NTX.

[kenrexford]

Here's the thing. 2♣ showing clubs and a higher suit is somewhat of an unusual treatment, eh?

Well:

http://www.bridgeaholics.com/bidding/gadge...cowrunouts.html

Now, in THAT write-up of Moscow Escape, no definition is given for a pass.

In this write-up pass expresses willingness to play 1NT doubled:

http://omahabridge.o...ak_Notrumps.pdf

But see this write-up:

http://www.bridgeguys.com/pdf/Precision/PC...capeSystems.pdf

In this one, Moscow Escapes include a pass that is forcing. But, that "Moscow Escapes" description does not even remotely look like what I remember. However, see "Meckwell Escapes."

The mere fact, then, that pass is an option, without explaining what pass means, does not necessarily mean that pass means willingness to play there.

It might. But, it might not. since 2♣ showing clubs and spades is obviously part of a special agreement, and since pass is often defined in those types of special agreements, the lack of definition of the pass cannot mean "must be to play" as the obvious default. Rather, it likely means something in the context of whichever escape system was in play.

[gnasher]

Yes, that's right Ken. When gwnn said

Quote

you can either bid 2♣ clubs and another or pass.

he really meant

Quote

you can either bid 2♣ clubs and another or make an artificial pass, which has a special meaning that I'm not going to tell you, except that it probably shows a different hand from what you actually have.

[kenrexford]

That's what I think happened. I think pass means something tricky.

[tgoodwinsr]

It makes you wish you were playing Raptor or something -- almost anything -- except a natural 1NT overcall, red vs. white. But partner knows he is red vs. white, too, and that means he should have the nuts, not some random 15-16 count, for his bid. Still, I expect he is going for 800 or so in 1NTx unless he has a five-card suit he can run to. The trouble with initiating a runout operation from my side of the table is that we are likely to end up in some crummy 4-3 fit at the two-level, and even if a 4-4 fit exists and we find it, I'd bet on 1100 or so in two of whatever that suit is, doubled. Look, they are likely to have the same problem at the other table, so what's the rush to make a bad situation worse?

[cherdanno]

I play that pass forces redouble, over which 2♣ by me shows a balanced hand with 4 clubs and 2 diamonds; partner can bid 2♦ to ask for my longer major. Since gwnn didn't say how he plays pass, I assume he is playing it the same way as I do. (What else could pass-then-2♣ be? With an unbalanced 2-suited hand I would bid right away, with a one-suited hand I would of course redouble to force partner to bid 2♣, and with 3 or more diamonds I would pass out 1NT XX.)

[Phil]

kenrexford, on Aug 17 2010, 07:19 PM, said:

The downside, however, is that partner might have six diamonds or five hearts and end up in the wrong contract if you bid 2♣.

Partner can overcall 2♦ (natural) with six the way I play.

I don't think I need to opine about what partner's options are with five hearts.