[kfay]

Was having a debate with a friend over the meaning of the following:

(1♣)-1♥-(P)-1♠
(P)-2♣

What's 2♣? Please be specific!

[Codo]

I have a meta rule that the cubid "always" asks for a stopper and denies a fit.

[hanp]

lol @ stopper ask.

I think most play this auction as strong, not natural.

[Free]

Strong, asks to do something useful, definitely not natural

[jdonn]

My read on kfay is when he asks us to be specific he wants someone to describe which strong hands are allowed, ie can it be a raise of partner?

[gnasher]

Nobody's been very specific about how far it forces.

[gnasher]

I don't think it can have primary support, unless you're planning to suppress it or you happen to have a slam try.

What I'd want to know, as advancer, is whether I can make a descriptive forcing 2♠ bid, or whether I have to jump to make it forcing.

[jjbrr]

Nor has anyone described minimums in terms of strength/HCP/shape/spade support/whatever.


I was one of the villains at the table that generated this alleged debate. I told kfay it shows "cards" and that the actual hand with concentrated, prime 13 with 2533 was close to a minimum but that I thought it needed a bit more - either better shape with support or another good card or something.

I think it forces through 2NT.

[whereagles]

I have it defined as good overcall, in the 13-17 range. Doesn't add much more than this.

[aguahombre]

I, too, would like to know which strong hands are allowed. For some strange reason, in all these years I have never come across a hand where --after overcalling 1♥ and getting a 1♠ advance --- 2♣ (artificial) has filled in a hole.

With support for the spade suit, we have raises and jump raises and splinters. With extra length and strength in our overcalled suit, we have jump rebids, etc. Partner will usually be able to see that she has a club stopper without my asking her to look, if I show a top-range overcall.


This subject was discussed about a year ago, and maybe the sharpies can find it.

I have, however --especially after a 1♣ opening -- found hands with normal overcall strength and club length (X AQJXX XX AJTXX) and found a 2♣ rebid by overcaller to be useful.

Before this gets jumped on, I really don't care how horrible someone thinks that agreement is. but I do care to see what strength and pattern needs to rebid 2♣ artificially because the hand cannot be handled with a different rebid. When I see that, then I can throw hands similar to the above in the toilet and use 2♣ in that better way.

[hanp]

I don't have an agreement about how far it forces. I would think 2D, 2H and 2S are all NF. (although maybe 2D should be forcing.)

As for the strength, I think it shows a maximal overcall. That was easy. Yesterday I gave xx AKQ10x AKx xxx as an answer when Kevin asked me whether xx AKQ10x Axx xxx was possible. With his suggested hand I said I would bid 1NT. If you also remove an ace then I would pass 1S.

[hanp]

gnasher, on Jul 22 2010, 10:30 AM, said:

I don't think it can have primary support, unless you're planning to suppress it or you happen to have a slam try.

What I'd want to know, as advancer, is whether I can make a descriptive forcing 2♠ bid, or whether I have to jump to make it forcing.

I think slam is quite unlikely after this start. I'm not saying it isn't possible but we just overcalled, advancer bid a NF 1S and we haven't splintered or something like that. I think that after 2C the question is usually if we are going to bid game and if so, which.

I think 3541, 2542, 2553, 2632, 2641, 1642 are just some of the possible shapes the cuebidder might have. For me a jump to 3D instead would be NF and typically 5-5, a jump to 3H is also NF but shows a pretty good suit.

I don't think the 2C cuebid has to be very descriptive, as there is lots of room. An auction like

1C - 1H - p - 1S
2C - 3C

is different, it would be practical to play this as GF for the obvious reasons.

[helene_t]

I think it could be anything that has extras but doesn't want to force to 2NT or higher.

It is forcing to 2♥.

Maybe useful for advancer to have a neutral 2♦ response. Oh well I can't think of a hand that would need it. Maybe 2♦ by advancer should be natural. Anyway, it is forcing.

[peachy]

Shows a good hand. Everything else is shrouded in mist.
In my methods, 1S by UPH is forcing. But it really doesn't matter, the meaning of 2C remains the same (for me).