[ArtK78]

This hand provoked a great deal of debate at a recent regional Swiss Teams. Personally, I was quite surprised, but I thought I would bring it to the forum.

You are playing a Walsh structure within an otherwise standard system and you pick up this hand and participate in this auction (you are third seat):

Scoring: IMP

1♣ - (P) - 1♦ - (P)
1NT - (P) - ?

---

Partner has not denied holding one or both major suits with his 1NT rebid.

What is your call?

[jjbrr]

2♥ ldo.

Reverses by responder are forcing

[jdonn]

So partner can still hold xxx KQJx xx KQJx right? KQJx KQJx xx xxx? What am I missing here? You bid 2♥, and if partner bids 3♥ you can still offer 3NT. Partner is the one who knows if his black suits are well stopped and whether his hearts are bad.

[ArtK78]

I agree with both posts above. Yet, my partner and several national class players agreed that 3NT was the correct call!

I think it is obligatory to bid 2♥ given the methods of the partnership.

Here are the partnership hands:

Scoring: IMP

1♣ - (P) - 1♦ - (P)
1NT - (P) - 3NT - All Pass

---

The opening lead was a spade, and since 5 diamond tricks are not sufficient to bring in 9 tricks before the opponent's spades are established I could not duck a diamond and I had to depend on the diamonds breaking. 4♥ is clearly a better spot, as you can handle most bad heart or diamond breaks, but if the diamonds do not run you cannot make 3NT. * (By the way, the diamonds did break, and 3NT rolled.)

But the actual result is not the issue. I thought that 3NT was a terrible call based on the partnership methods given the possible hands that partner might hold, as was pointed out above.

* Yes, there are SOME layouts where you can make 3NT even if the diamonds do not run. But, again, that is not the point.

[jjbrr]

Lots of good things can happen if we bid 2♥ and (almost) no bad things can happen. We can still get to 3NT when it's right if partner doesn't have a ♥ fit and doesn't hint at ♦

[Hanoi5]

3NT sounds like a MP's bid, not teams.

[gwnn]

wtf. did they offer any arguments? I can think of at least 3 better bids than 3NT:
2H
4NT
6D

[pooltuna]

Partner has limited his hand and you have 7 highly probable tricks assuming partner has the minimum 2♦ his 1NT call should promise. Now is it more reasonable to think we are missing slam or should we just be considering which game. IMO we ought to limit our aim to game. So which game? Do we try for a ♥ game providing the defense with extra information or do we just hope partner has the probable 2 tricks in 3NT. I think the latter carries more weight so I think 3NT is tactically clear if not technically correct.

[Fluffy]

2♥ is normal, you can also bid 2♦ with XYZ to make partner declarer.

[Siegmund]

3NT is more of a matchpoint bid but I don't think it's insanely bad. Responder took a view that his Txxx was worth suppressing. He was arguably wrong as the cards lie.

Bear in mind that, while 1C-1D-1NT can conceal a 4-card major, opener does have a choice whether to bid 1NT or not. I don't know what your partnership style is; but in mine, if I bid 1NT over 1D with a 4-card major, I am definitely claiming to have the other major stopped, so the risk is not as great as it seems.

In all fairness, let's also consider that the bidding is going to go the same way when opener doesn't have the H9, which gives 3NT a lot more chances to beat 4H when hearts break badly. It's mighty unlikely to find opener not only with 4 hearts, but with 3 high hearts.

[Cascade]

I too am bidding the boring 2♥. I never like to put down xx in dummy for 3NT without exploring for a major fit and here I had stiff A in another suit that might not be well stopped. This is a no brainer just in terms of choice of games.

And then as others have mentioned when 3NT is a bad game we might actually be cold for 12 tricks in another denomination this points us further in the same direction.

[mikeh]

I may be entirely wrong here, and certainly I am swimming against the tide of posters so far, but I agree with 3N at imps.

Look at the heart suit: would anyone be surprised to learn that a 4-4 heart fit failed in game while 3N was cold? Sure, it isn't probable, but it wouldn't be the strangest result you've seen. And, yes, maybe on some of those layouts, we can find hearts and still play 3N....I'm not saying it couldn't happen, but I am saying it'll happen on the forums, seeing both hands, far more often than it would happen in real life.

Meanwhile:

1. 9 tricks are usually going to be cold looking at this hand. After all partner rates to hold either Jx or any 3 card holding...a doubleton small is his worst holding, not his average holding.

2. If we show hearts and partner denies them, we are back to 3n with the dubious benefit of virtually ensuring the one lead we don't want. I can hear you say: they'll lead a spade anyway. But if partner is 4=3=2=4 or 4=2=3=4, which are very common shapes when he lacks hearts, who is to say that opening leader had an automatic spade lead rather than, say, a heart lead?

On the hand we're scared of, his holding xx in diamonds, a spade lead is particularly devastating and bidding hearts is the way to ensure you get one. is he more than 50% likely to hold a playable 4 card heart suit, and a layout where 3N is otherwise in jeopardy? I think not.

3. While slam is possible, are we ever going to look for it? I can't see doing so in response to his raising hearts...we will probably never know if we have 5-level safety. And if he doesn't fit hearts, are we really going slamming in diamonds?

So I like 3N. Not at mps, where the extra trick from a ruff might be valuable, but definitely at imps.

BTW, if I were looking for hearts, I'd bid 2♦ (gf...I play this in these auctions...I lose only the ability to play 2♣ and I'll gladly let you win all the boards on which that works for you with silent opps)...I want partner on play if he has hearts, and I don't want to show hearts if he doesn't.....heck....ideally he bids 2♠ and we blow off the lead.

[the hog]

jdonn, on Jul 19 2010, 09:28 PM, said:

So partner can still hold xxx KQJx xx KQJx right? KQJx KQJx xx xxx? What am I missing here? You bid 2♥, and if partner bids 3♥ you can still offer 3NT. Partner is the one who knows if his black suits are well stopped and whether his hearts are bad.

Can you still offer 3NT? I seriously don't think so, (excuse the pun).
Anyway, I agree with Mikeh. If the hearts were a bit better, then I would certainly bid 2H. With such poor hearts, I think 3NT is a superior bid.

[jdonn]

The_Hog, on Jul 19 2010, 07:19 PM, said:

jdonn, on Jul 19 2010, 09:28 PM, said:

So partner can still hold xxx KQJx xx KQJx right? KQJx KQJx xx xxx? What am I missing here? You bid 2♥, and if partner bids 3♥ you can still offer 3NT. Partner is the one who knows if his black suits are well stopped and whether his hearts are bad.

Can you still offer 3NT? I seriously don't think so, (excuse the pun).
Anyway, I agree with Mikeh. If the hearts were a bit better, then I would certainly bid 2H. With such poor hearts, I think 3NT is a superior bid.

Of course I can, by bidding 3NT. I'll go so far as to say using 3NT as serious/non is dumb on this auction. Showing hearts but still being able to offer notrump is important, and showing your level of slam interest opposite a hand already in a tight notrump (and distributional) range is completely unimportant. This was even mentioned in the other thread today and I completely agree, there should be no serious 3NT when either hand is already defined in a tight range.

Checking back with 2♦ seems fine to me as well. But avoiding hearts altogether is completely bizarre. I don't know how anyone knows which of the other 3 suits they do or don't want led anyway. Maybe by bidding hearts I turn them onto a good spade lead, or a bad spade lead, or a good club lead, or a bad club lead. Or off a good or bad heart lead, who knows? We are so sure that we don't want the one suit we can actually help stop to be led? This is just masterminding, being at the 1 level and already guessing what stoppers and shape and suit quality partner has when it's so easy to find out.

[655321]

I would always bid 2♥ (or 2♦ enquiry) with this hand.

However I can understand the 3NT bidders, presumably the reason that these national class players (what is a national class player BTW??) want to bid 3NT is because they hope to cash 9 fast winners without needing to worry about a bunch of trump losers in a heart contract.

Anyway, whether or not you agree with them, without doubt these national class players (?) who bid 3NT are fully cognizant that they will sometimes miss a 4-4 heart fit.

[mike777]

ArtK78, on Jul 19 2010, 09:23 AM, said:

This hand provoked a great deal of debate at a recent regional Swiss Teams.  Personally, I was quite surprised, but I thought I would bring it to the forum.

You are playing a Walsh structure within an otherwise standard system and you pick up this hand and participate in this auction (you are third seat):

Scoring: IMP

1♣ - (P) - 1♦ - (P)
1NT - (P) - ?

---

Partner has not denied holding one or both major suits with his 1NT rebid.

What is your call?

2h.....assume nat and gf..

prefer over 2d(art, gf)

[Lobowolf]

I have to confess, it wouldn't occur to me (well, not for more than a 1/2-second) to bid anything other than 2♥.

In my defense, in general, the less creative I am, the better my results tend to be.

[Flame]

I see that some suggests bidding 3NT over 2H-3H, I wonder if we shouldnt look for slam, even grand slam is possible if partner has something like AKQX of ♥ and A of ♣, and not less important partner knows our shape, he knows we got good ♦ suit and will know that A of ♣ is important, and AK ♥ are important but QJ♣ or QJ♠ are not important. 3S could be better as partner can still offer 3NT by himself over 3S.

[ArtK78]

655321, on Jul 19 2010, 11:45 PM, said:

(what is a national class player BTW??)

Players who you would expect to make the finals of any North American Pair or Swiss Team event, and to compete strongly in North American KO events.

[hanp]

National class players? That's like jdonn when he's 67.