[OleBerg]

Scoring: MP

---

Unopposed bidding:

1♣ - 1♥

?

Hiddin continuation:

Spoiler

If you bid 1 spade, partner bids 2 clubs. What now?
If you bid something else, your problems are over.

[gnasher]

This probably isn't a very helpful answer, but I do whatever is systemic. That might be 1♠, 1NT or 2♥. This shouldn't be a matter of judgment.

[Codo]

I do not understand the question at all.

If you have discussed to bid 1 Spade with 4 of them in a balanced hand, do so.
If you have discussed to bid 1 NT with these hands, do so.
If you need to raise with these hands, you surely have a system to find your 44 spade fits later.

Lets say that I bid 1 Spade, I would continue with the obvious 2 heart bid.

[fachiru]

I prefer a simple raise to immediately limit my hand and show support in the same bid. In my oppinion, 2♥=8, 1♠=7, nothing else considered.

[rhm]

I would not have opened the bidding, but I am aware that this is nowadays a minority view. (The hand is not worth 12 HCP)
I think standard is to rebid 1♠ over 1♥, unless that is supposed to guarantee an unbalanced hand.
Without this agreement anything else tends to deny ♠ and 1NT does not appeal anyway with two small in ♦.
If partner makes a non forcing rebid over 1♠ (e.g. he preferences into ♣), you have to pass, because you can not correct to ♥, which would show more in standard.

Rainer Herrmann

[655321]

There was some discussion about 4324 hands in this old thread.

[nige1]

OleBerg, on Oct 13 2009, 02:28 AM, said:

Scoring: MP

Unopposed bidding: 1♣ - 1♥?

---

You bid 1♠ and partner rebids 2♣. Now _P = 10. 2♥ =7.

[gordontd]

nige1, on Oct 13 2009, 01:08 PM, said:

OleBerg, on Oct 13 2009, 02:28 AM, said:

Scoring: MP

Unopposed bidding: 1♣ - 1♥?

---

You bid 1♠ and partner rebids 2♣. Now _P = 10. 2♥ =7.

2H on the third round would be a wild overbid.

[pooltuna]

Is there a system constraint that keeps me from making the WTFTP 1♠ call?

[jdonn]

pooltuna, on Oct 13 2009, 09:20 AM, said:

Is there a system constraint that keeps me from making the WTFTP 1♠ call?

The constraint that makes it impossible to find a 5-3 heart fit when partner is less than game forcing? You may even end in a 4-3 spade fit if he passes or a 4-3 club fit on the actual auction.

But I still bid 1♠, without all the upper case letters though.

[Jlall]

I think systemically bidding 2H with this hand kinda sucks. I am really not a fan of systemically rebidding 1N, but a lot of people do that.

I think some of the more reasonable people who play that agree with what is obvious to me, that you are LOSING by bidding 1N with this shape in general, but you gain by having 1S promise an unbalanced hand. I think a lot of them seem to think they are winning by bidding 1N with this hand, and also winning by having a better defined 1S rebid, which is LOL to me, I guess it's so awesome that you just always win!

I could see that if people agree to rebid 1N with this shape, that they might raise to 2H with very suit oriented 3 card raises, since their alternative is not to rebid 1S. I'm not a huge fan of raising with 3 in balanced hands and this hand would not qualify, but I could see someone judging to bid 2H if their system mandated bidding 1N with this shape otherwise.

Rebidding 2H systemically with this shape rather than either 1S or 1N is just horrible to me though. I think 1S is clearly better whenever it's just a partial hand because:

A) Sometimes you have a 4-4 spade fit!
B ) Sometimes you belong in 1N when you have a balanced hand!
C) Sometimes you have a 4-4 club fit!

You might lose when you miss your 5-3 heart fit on a partial hand, oh well. I think people also underestimate that fact that it's generally a bigger disaster to play 2H with a 4-3 heart fit than 1N with a 5-3 heart fit when you have a balanced hand. It's way more likely that the 4-3 heart fit is going to play ONE trick worse than 1N than it is that the 5-3 heart fit is going to take TWO tricks better than 1N.

You sometimes luck out when partner has 5 hearts if he has 4 spades or 4 clubs anyways. Basically missing 2H on a 5-3 is not the end of the world.

When comparing 2H to 1N though you no longer find 4-4 spades either way, and you no longer get to 2C, so you're just comparing if 1N will generally play better than 2H. So you might choose to bid 2H even though I would bid 1N if that's my system.

One more factor, 2H is better than 1S if partner has a game try over 2H but a non game try over something else. These hands exist because fits sometimes improve our hand! So the fact that we have a 14 count should be an argument for 2H. That said our 14 is very soft with no aces etc, so it's not clear we are going to make game opposite the 9/10 counts wtih 5 hearts that game try even though we have 14. This is especially true because partner will probably have a stiff in a black suit with these hands!

Against this, there are also hands that will bid 3S over 1S, but pass 2H. These hands also usually have a stiff club though (4441 9/10 count).

Edit: Just noted that this is MP which really strengthens the case for 1S because it's just better when you have a partial IMO. I would hate to play a system that forces a 1N rebid with this shape at MP even more than usual!

[jdonn]

This is definitely one of the softer 14 counts I have seen. I hesitate to even call it 12.

[Jlall]

jdonn, on Oct 13 2009, 10:01 AM, said:

This is definitely one of the softer 14 counts I have seen. I hesitate to even call it 12.

heh, I thought it was KQJ KQJ Q. Well, yet another point for not raising then, it's not like we're trying to encourage light game tries.

[phil_20686]

Generally i play a short club and walsh style. In that case i think bidding 1s in all balanced hands is a huge loser. Partner isnt able to put you back to clubs when he has 4 of them because you still might only be 4243 or even 4342.

Presumeable you agree only to bid 1s there when you actually have 4 or more clubs, so this 4(32)4 shape is the only balanced hand that you might have? In my expereince the only relevant consideration is that part abotu partner making game tries. Partner will make many more game tries after 2h.

The question is whether that is actually a bad thing? Agree that it is a bit soft, but the small doubleton diamond could be useful if partner has no wastage there. Definately do not think that if you bid 1s and partner returns you to clubs that you should bid 2h.

That should show constructive values imo. Not enough to bid 2d and risk the 3 level depending on partners shape, but enough that he would move with some hands that werent originally good enough for an invite.

I would rather bid 2h than 1s. I beleive in showing support, and if i do that then i dont need to worry about my hand again. More importantly, while i do not bid 2h on all bal hands with 3 card support. I think that this is a hand tha will play better in hearts than NT on balance, because of the decent hearts and small doubleton in diamonds, which coudl easily provide ruffing values. Partner knows that i may have a blal or semi bal with 3 card support and will offer nt later if it interests him. I don't think that 2h/1s is a judgement made purely on shape, but also on honour distribution, and one should be aware about reaching more games after 2h and avoid it with 3 trumps in a sub minimal hand.


PS: I am one of those who beleives that 1s should aways show an unbalanced hand. So in none of the systems that i play would I have that option. I think the gain in finding the right strain when you want to play in the minor is sufficient to make up for the small loss in finding the right partial.

PPS I largely solved all these problems by agreeing to play transfer walsh, now i can always find the right partial (uncontested) and still get to show unbalanced hands by rebidding 1s.

[aguahombre]

I think most would open the hand, unless they saw it in a forum.
Not playing short club, I would not have Phil__20686' concerns.
1S is fine. We don't show an unbalanced hand --not the same as if the response had been 1D. I really do not mind losing the race to 1NT if lefty wants to come in, and I have no reason to believe I need to be declarer in 1NT rather than partner.

1/1/1 does not get passed in my old-fogey world where responder has a response.

[Jlall]

655321, on Oct 13 2009, 06:55 AM, said:

There was some discussion about 4324 hands in this old thread.

Heh good catch I am repeating myself

[skjaeran]

I prefer rebidding 1♠.

(Anyway, I normally play transfer responses, and our bidding would be 1♣-1♦-1♥, showing 3-card hearts.)

[andy_h]

For people who prefer 2♥ to 1♠, do you also respond 1♥ with 4♥&5♦?

[mike777]

OleBerg, on Oct 13 2009, 02:28 AM, said:

<!-- ONEHAND begin --><table border='1'> <tr> <td> <table> <tr> <td> Dealer: </td> <td> South </td> </tr> <tr> <td> Vul: </td> <td> None </td> </tr> <tr> <td> Scoring: </td> <td> MP </td> </tr> </table> </td> <td> <table> <tr> <th> <span class='spades'> ♠ </span> </th> <td> KJ72 </td> </tr> <tr> <th> <span class='hearts'> ♥ </span> </th> <td> Q106 </td> </tr> <tr> <th> <span class='diamonds'> ♦ </span> </th> <td> 74 </td> </tr> <tr> <th> <span class='clubs'> ♣ </span> </th> <td> KQJ3 </td> </tr> </table> </td> <td>  </td> </tr> </table><!-- ONEHAND end -->

Unopposed bidding:

1♣ - 1♥

?

Hiddin continuation:
<!-- HIDDEN begin --><span class='hiddenpost'>  If you bid 1 spade, partner bids 2 clubs. What now?
If you bid something else, your problems are over. </span><!-- HIDDEN end -->

1s easy so far.

If pard rebids 2c...again easy I rebid 2h showing 3h and a minimum hand. If we play xyz again I rebid 2d which is forced............. in any case I can never play in 2c on this auction.

[mike777]

andy_h, on Oct 13 2009, 08:29 PM, said:

For people who prefer 2♥ to 1♠, do you also respond 1♥ with 4♥&5♦?

yes..with less than game force...yes...even.....4h and 6d.


btw I rebid 1s and then 2h or 2d if xyz over 2c rebid by pard. I can never play in 2c on this auction.....

I assume playing with a true expert pard with no discussion that after:
1club=1y
1z=2c

2c=some form of undiscussed checkback...I can never pass.