[helene_t]

cherdanno, on May 24 2009, 06:36 AM, said:

Question: Does CA have above-average income inequality? (Dot-com billionaires and movie stars...) That would make 15th per average even more close to average (in any progressive tax code, higher income inequality will lead to higher taxes per income).

I thought the US tax system (like those of most other countries) was effectively regressive since rich people have more deductions.

OK, it's just something I saw in the economics textbook I used 20 years ago, and maybe the overall tax system could be regressive in spite of income taxes being progressive, if poor people pay relatively more VAT and spend relatively more on alcohol and tobacco.

[hrothgar]

mike777, on May 24 2009, 09:15 AM, said:

example the head of microsoft and intel both live out of state of calif. .......

Microsoft is headquartered in Redmond, WA (and has been since back before there was dirt).
No clue why you think the head of Microsoft would live in CA.

Intel, on the other hand, is based in Santa Clara. In a remarkable development, Paul Otellini lives in San Francisco. You can see his house here
http://virtualglobet...view/?service=1

[PassedOut]

blackshoe, on May 23 2009, 09:03 PM, said:

mike777, on May 23 2009, 06:18 PM, said:

They might also simply borrow alot more money and repay it down the road.

Sure. Just like the Feds have been doing for the last sixty years or so. Oh, wait... the Federal debt is growing, not decreasing, ain't it?

California has a terrible mess on its hands, and the rest of the US should take this to heart when considering the financial position of the federal government.

Although Obama represents a great improvement over the leadership we've had, I completely disagree with his "tax cuts for the middle class." Politically, it's always excruciatingly difficult to restore taxes here, even when no good alternative exists. Increases in spending, though, tend to pass easily.

People have a proclivity to avoid making hard choices when payment can be deferred (I certainly have to guard against that tendency in myself), and the consequences always follow. Best to bite the bullet and pay as you go.

I recognize that deficits are necessary in hard times and that permanent improvements in infrastructure represent money better spent than money wasted on self-perpetuating subsidies, untested social programs, outmoded weapons, and unnecessary wars. Yet, I see congress eagerly embracing Obama's spending proposals while pushing aside Obama's proposals for generating the revenue to pay for them.

In my opinion, how Obama handles this will be a major test of his leadership abilities. I wish him well, but worry for my country.

[kenberg]

I agree entirely with PassedOut here.

There is, I think, a tendency to look at history and say we have always come through it. True enough, but it has been the conceit of past empires to think that their success is the natural way of things. And then... Oops.

I saw in the paper today that the savings rate in the US is now at 5% of income and there is worry (!) that it might rise to 7 or 8 %. Worrying that the economic recovering may be stalled because people are acting sensibly is not a happy situation.

I guess California has to solve its own problems, does it not? My nature is to wish the best for everyone, but it's also my nature to keep my own money for my own needs. There can be exceptions, but I don't see one here.

[Winstonm]

No one has mentioned the California pension system - this is a huge albatross around the drowning state budget.

As to Obama's middle-class tax cuts, this is only due to the critical nature of this recession-deflationary event. The huge amounts of money pouring in from the government is straight from the Keynesian playbook on how to stop/avoid a depression.

[luke warm]

Winstonm, on May 24 2009, 12:09 PM, said:

No one has mentioned the California pension system - this is a huge albatross around the drowning state budget.

As to Obama's middle-class tax cuts, this is only due to the critical nature of this recession-deflationary event. The huge amounts of money pouring in from the government is straight from the Keynesian playbook on how to stop/avoid a depression.

the problem is, it isn't real money... it would be like you deciding to spend on whatever you choose, then printing money to pay for it... at least it seems that way to me

[Winstonm]

Quote

I saw in the paper today that the savings rate in the US is now at 5% of income and there is worry (!) that it might rise to 7 or 8 %. Worrying that the economic recovering may be stalled because people are acting sensibly is not a happy situation

The fat times are over. Alan Greenspan helped promote an imbalance between production and demand that could only be solved by new debt; once the ability to service debt was maximized, or peak debt was reached, growth had to go into reverse.

The Obama/Geithner/Bernanke/Keynesian monetary expansionist policies cannot work without a willingness to borrow - and that was the end result of the Japanese playbook on fighting deflation - zombie banks and a lost decade of growth.

There is no such thing as a free lunch.

[Winstonm]

luke warm, on May 24 2009, 12:14 PM, said:

Winstonm, on May 24 2009, 12:09 PM, said:

No one has mentioned the California pension system - this is a huge albatross around the drowning state budget.

As to Obama's middle-class tax cuts, this is only due to the critical nature of this recession-deflationary event.  The huge amounts of money pouring in from the government is straight from the Keynesian playbook on how to stop/avoid a depression.

the problem is, it isn't real money... it would be like you deciding to spend on whatever you choose, then printing money to pay for it... at least it seems that way to me

Unlike the U.S. government, states cannot print money - nor can they operate on deficits; hence, the problem with state budgets.

As for the U.S., there are only three ways for the federal government to raise money - raise taxes, sell the debt as treasury bonds or treasury bills, or expand the federal reserve balance sheet (print money).

[Elianna]

mike777, on May 23 2009, 08:30 PM, said:

Elianna, on May 23 2009, 11:19 PM, said:

helene_t, on May 23 2009, 11:43 AM, said:

Elianna, on May 23 2009, 06:15 AM, said:

When you only need 50+% to pass a spending bill, but 66+% to pass a tax bill, something's gotta give.

Lol. And this poll about the train from SF to LA was about a proposal that didn't state anything about how it would be financed? How can one vote on such a scheme without knowing what taxes will be raised?

This is why these things should not be decided by referendum.

Also, supposedly much of the money would come completely from the federal government. It said in the brochure the state sent out that by passing this, CA could apply for a federal grant so that it would be paid by the feds.

I can only ask if you live in Los angeles area do you try and get your kid into private/out of state grammer school at all costs?..Would you send your kid to public school?

Do you even teach in public school?

My only point is many say go private or move out of state, we moved, you may be able to afford private.

As I am a product of LA public schools (at a time when they were thought to be awful, and before charter schools) I would be happy to send a hypothetical kid to public school.

No, I don't work in public school, but only because I'm not allowed to: I don't have a teaching certificate. I would much prefer working in public school.

[PassedOut]

Today Paul Krugman examines comparisons between California and the whole USA: State of Paralysis

Quote

Despite the economic slump, despite irresponsible policies that have doubled the state’s debt burden since Arnold Schwarzenegger became governor, California has immense human and financial resources. It should not be in fiscal crisis; it should not be on the verge of cutting essential public services and denying health coverage to almost a million children. But it is — and you have to wonder if California’s political paralysis foreshadows the future of the nation as a whole.

The seeds of California’s current crisis were planted more than 30 years ago, when voters overwhelmingly passed Proposition 13, a ballot measure that placed the state’s budget in a straitjacket.

...

So will America follow California into ungovernability? Well, California has some special weaknesses that aren’t shared by the federal government. In particular, tax increases at the federal level don’t require a two-thirds majority, and can in some cases bypass the filibuster. So acting responsibly should be easier in Washington than in Sacramento.

But the California precedent still has me rattled. Who would have thought that America’s largest state, a state whose economy is larger than that of all but a few nations, could so easily become a banana republic?

On the other hand, the problems that plague California politics apply at the national level too.

Seems right for us to be worried about the parallels.

[Winstonm]

PassedOut, on May 25 2009, 09:26 AM, said:

Today Paul Krugman examines comparisons between California and the whole USA: State of Paralysis

Quote

Despite the economic slump, despite irresponsible policies that have doubled the state’s debt burden since Arnold Schwarzenegger became governor, California has immense human and financial resources. It should not be in fiscal crisis; it should not be on the verge of cutting essential public services and denying health coverage to almost a million children. But it is — and you have to wonder if California’s political paralysis foreshadows the future of the nation as a whole.

The seeds of California’s current crisis were planted more than 30 years ago, when voters overwhelmingly passed Proposition 13, a ballot measure that placed the state’s budget in a straitjacket.

...

So will America follow California into ungovernability? Well, California has some special weaknesses that aren’t shared by the federal government. In particular, tax increases at the federal level don’t require a two-thirds majority, and can in some cases bypass the filibuster. So acting responsibly should be easier in Washington than in Sacramento.

But the California precedent still has me rattled. Who would have thought that America’s largest state, a state whose economy is larger than that of all but a few nations, could so easily become a banana republic?

On the other hand, the problems that plague California politics apply at the national level too.

Seems right for us to be worried about the parallels.

I am rather shocked that someone as intelligent as Paul Krugman could be shocked by the plummet of California into Banania. It reminds me of the computer models used by the investment banks that totally discounted the possibility that housing prices could flatten or decline.

The REALLY BIG worry is the U.S. debt - China, already the largest purchaser of U.S. debt, is moving into short-term treasury bills instead of long-term bonds in anticipation that long-term U.S. debt will decline in value. Britain had its debt rating dropped, and there is talk by the ratings agencies of dropping the ratings of U.S. debt, as well.

[Phil]

Elianna, on May 24 2009, 12:20 PM, said:

As I am a product of LA public schools (at a time when they were thought to be awful, and before charter schools) I would be happy to send a hypothetical kid to public school.

No, I don't work in public school, but only because I'm not allowed to: I don't have a teaching certificate. I would much prefer working in public school.

Ellie have you been on a LASD campus lately? I know you weren't specific about location, but even the schools in the LA 'burbs have police everywhere. The urban schools have metal detectors as you come in.

We moved from LA County to South OC to get away from all this. We love the schools down here, although we will probably be moving East in a month or two

[Gerben42]

Quote

Lol. And this poll about the train from SF to LA was about a proposal that didn't state anything about how it would be financed? How can one vote on such a scheme without knowing what taxes will be raised?

The train will pay itself, if it gets there in say 3 hours, which is realistic.

[Elianna]

When I went to high school they had school police and would wand random students. So what?

I used to work as a teacher's aid at Reseda High about five years ago. This was considered one of the worse schools in the valley.

I'd be more scared working at a suburban school where there are NO metal detectors, where there is a high rate of gun ownership. Where kids with grudges could easily show up with guns.

At least schools with metal detectors and lots of school police present make it a bit harder for the students to show up with guns.

[kenberg]

This stuff with the schools is one more cause for great pessimism.

I graduated from a not very good high school in St. Paul in 1956. There was a motorcycle club (Hell's Outcasts). There were kids on probation for things like car theft. There was a definite possibility of getting punched out if you didn't watch yourself. Some of my teachers were not good (though many were) and one was generally pretty drunk by the time my sixth period class with him rolled around. BUT Never did I have the slightest thought that I was in danger of being shot or knifed. Back then I read of a kid getting shot in a NY school and I was shocked to learn that such things could happen.

I really don't know how we have let things come to this, but it is a total disaster. Daniel Moynihan, long ago, wrote about the problem of defining deviancy downward. The man was a prophet. We get this ***** because we, as a society, accept this *****.

In 55 or so we took a bus on a field trip and a fat kid was acting up. The teacher on the bus stood up and said "Butterball, sit down on your fat ass and shut up". Today the teacher would lose his job, the school would be sued, the kids would have counselors help them with the trauma. On the bus I was on, Butterball sat down on his fat ass and shut up. Of course I could hope for better methods of student control, but there was control. And no metal detectors.

[Winstonm]

Whether the state of California or the country called the United States, the cause of the deterioration of the standards of civil responsibility and accountability of which Ken wrote appears to me to be based in a belief in an exceptional entitlement for Americans that is unshared with the rest of the world's peoples.


We should not have to work hard, produce value, or save to benefit from being born in the country which has inherited the mantle of "top gun" - school? we dunt need no stinkin' school - you dunt like what I'm doin', tough *****, because you get in my way and I'll show you my little friend, just like my country does.

Negotiation is for wussies - bad-asses make their own rules - dig?

[luke warm]

kenberg, on May 25 2009, 01:11 PM, said:

This stuff with the schools is one more cause for great pessimism.

I graduated from a not very good high school in St. Paul in 1956. There was a motorcycle club (Hell's Outcasts). There were kids on probation for things like car theft. There was a definite possibility of getting punched out if you didn't watch yourself. Some of my teachers were not good (though many were) and one was generally pretty drunk by the time my sixth period class with him rolled around. BUT Never did I have the slightest thought that I was in danger of being shot or knifed. Back then I read of a kid getting shot in a NY school and I was shocked to learn that such things could happen.

I really don't know how we have let things come to this, but it is a total disaster. Daniel Moynihan, long ago, wrote about the problem of defining deviancy downward. The man was a prophet. We get this ***** because we, as a society, accept this *****.

In 55 or so we took a bus on a field trip and a fat kid was acting up. The teacher on the bus stood up and said "Butterball, sit down on your fat ass and shut up". Today the teacher would lose his job, the school would be sued, the kids would have counselors help them with the trauma. On the bus I was on, Butterball sat down on his fat ass and shut up. Of course I could hope for better methods of student control, but there was control. And no metal detectors.

you're right, it was much the same when i was in school... at that time, the shop teacher had a paddle, a good size one with holes drilled in it... nowadays just having such a thing might get a teacher arrested... hell i read about a parent charged with abuse for spanking a kid (who was acting up) in a grocery store

[PassedOut]

luke warm, on May 25 2009, 02:23 PM, said:

you're right, it was much the same when i was in school... at that time, the shop teacher had a paddle, a good size one with holes drilled in it... nowadays just having such a thing might get a teacher arrested... hell i read about a parent charged with abuse for spanking a kid (who was acting up) in a grocery store

My 6th grade teacher had a big wooden paddle with a handle, and he used it once in awhile -- particularly on one kid.

I never got hit with the paddle, but one time he stood me in front of the class and threw erasers at me over and over. I had accidentally hit Karen Holman when she suddenly stood up from her desk in the middle of an eraser-throwing fight among us boys.

It was embarrassing. I don't recall any eraser-throwing fights after that.

[Winstonm]

PassedOut, on May 25 2009, 02:37 PM, said:

luke warm, on May 25 2009, 02:23 PM, said:

you're right, it was much the same when i was in school... at that time, the shop teacher had a paddle, a good size one with holes drilled in it... nowadays just having such a thing might get a teacher arrested... hell i read about a parent charged with abuse for spanking a kid (who was acting up) in a grocery store

My 6th grade teacher had a big wooden paddle with a handle, and he used it once in awhile -- particularly on one kid.

I never got hit with the paddle, but one time he stood me in front of the class and threw erasers at me over and over. I had accidentally hit Karen Holman when she suddenly stood up from her desk in the middle of an eraser-throwing fight among us boys.

It was embarrassing. I don't recall any eraser-throwing fights after that.

By the same token, parents also used to believe they should not live beyond their means, that debt was something that was to be avoided, and they were responsible for the behavior of their children.

[jdonn]

I'm going to bookmark this thread so that every time I feel old I can look at it and feel much better.

I wonder how butterball is doing now.