[maggieb]

Oleberg! I do not see what Josh did to deserve such a tirade. He didn't understand what you said, what's the big deal? That is no reason to become a vicious pottie mouth, trust me that it only makes you look bad not him.

I think the forums would be a much happier place if you would start behaving the way my signature suggests instead of the way this thread title suggests.

[OleBerg]

Ok, I'll try to be serious.

maggieb, on Dec 14 2008, 12:33 PM, said:

Oleberg!    I do not see what Josh did to deserve such a tirade. He didn't understand what you said, what's the big deal?

He suggested that I should have meant that 1♥ promised 4 spades. I cannot see that as anything but an attempt to ridicule me. (Suggesting that I could believe such a thing.) All he would have to do, to understand my post, was to give it just a tiny effort, which was what I asked him to do.

Quote

That is no reason to become a vicious pottie mouth, trust me that it only makes you look bad not him. 

I don't care.

Quote

I think the forums would be a much happier place if you would start behaving the way my signature suggests instead of the way this thread title suggests. 

I find this a little rich, coming from you. Ever since you wrote: "OleBerg, your curiosities have nothing to do with bridge." (In this thread: http://forums.bridge...showtopic=28495 ), all your comments to my posts has been with a "smarter than thou" attitude, and often quite useless.

However they have not obscured the threads, so I don't mind

[rogerclee]

OleBerg, your curiosities have nothing to do with bridge.

[foo]

hrothgar, on Dec 13 2008, 01:19 PM, said:

MP  White versus Red

1) You hold
♠QTxxx ♥KJxx ♦Axxx ♣-

You pass as dealer and the auction starts
P - (P) - 1♥ - (4♦);??
What's your call?

2) Also, is the following auction possible in any sane world
P - (P) - 1♥ - (4♦);P - (P) - X - (P);5♠

1= Assuming We play 5cM, We have at least a 9 card fit in ♥'s. Also, given the 4♦ preempt, We rate to have a double fit in S+H.

Your shapely 10 HCP has become worth at least 15 Dummy points, and may well be worth far more, like ~20+, if We have the double Major fit.
Signing off in 4♥ is too weak IMHO.

Since you know We rate to have 5 level safety and you know that We may very well have a slam, the question is how best to explore for it.
I may get hung for it, but 5♦ seems IMHO to clarify the situation most concisely.


2= Obviously, this auction, like any legal auction, exists. The question is what meaning to put to it. IMHO this sequence says "Opener, bid slam with good ♠'s"


Side note: Those advocating that ♠QTxxx♥KJxx♦Axxx♣- is an opening bid 1st chair at MPs are not crazy. It might not be my or your cup of tea, but it is not completely bonkers.
With 1 3/4 QT, 6 losers, and an easy opening and rebid, there are certainly some who play a style where this hand would be considered a systemic minimum opening.

After all, in this case it certainly would have made the ensuing auction easier if the example hand had been opened

[han]

foo, on Dec 14 2008, 01:50 PM, said:

Obviously, this auction, like any legal auction, exists.

Disagree. True, the auction 1NT-3NT-6NT exists theoretically but there is no bridge hand consistent with both the 1NT and 6NT calls. Clearly it was this what Richard was asking about and in my opinion, there is no hand that first passes, then passes over 4D and then jumps to 4S.

[OleBerg]

han, on Dec 14 2008, 09:17 PM, said:

foo, on Dec 14 2008, 01:50 PM, said:

Obviously, this auction, like any legal auction, exists.

Disagree. True, the auction 1NT-3NT-6NT exists theoretically but there is no bridge hand consistent with both the 1NT and 6NT calls. Clearly it was this what Richard was asking about and in my opinion, there is no hand that first passes, then passes over 4D and then jumps to 4S.

Nonetheless, I'll make yet another attempt:

Red vs white, playing 4-card majors.

Playing with a partner that guarantees four spades or excess strength. (Not my approach, but might be within the limits of "sane".)

♠ QJ432
♥ 2
♦ 5432
♣ AQ10

[han]

1H guarantees 4 spades or excess strength?

[rogerclee]

OleBerg, on Dec 14 2008, 12:34 PM, said:

Playing with a partner that guarantees four spades or excess strength. (Not my approach,

You don't play that takeout doubles promise either takeout shape or extra values?

[OleBerg]

han, on Dec 14 2008, 09:38 PM, said:

1H guarantees 4 spades or excess strength?

Naturally.

[OleBerg]

rogerclee, on Dec 14 2008, 09:43 PM, said:

OleBerg, on Dec 14 2008, 12:34 PM, said:

Playing with a partner that guarantees four spades or excess strength. (Not my approach,

You don't play that takeout doubles promise either takeout shape or extra values?

I do, but I do not consider 4 spades a nescesity, to call the shape takeout. I would double on any 3-5-1-4 that were not sub-minimum.

[benlessard]

4H.


trying for slam here is probably wrong because there is a good chance of getting ruffed at trick 1.

I tought that X might work since going for 500 is possible if you can ruff some clubs but partner is likely to bid 5C where 5H might be too high.

[foo]

han, on Dec 14 2008, 02:38 PM, said:

1H guarantees 4 ♠'s or excess strength?   

I've seen styles of both Acol and KS where a 1H opening fits descriptions like this.

For instance, if 1H-1S;2S or 1H-1S;1N promises 15-17 in playing strength.

If you have such an agreement, then hands with 4+H that evaluate to 14- in playing strength must either
be opened a Weak NT or
have 6+H or
be shapely with 5+H & 4+m or
not be opened

[han]

I was just pulling Oleberg's leg, I think he understood.

[foo]

han, on Dec 14 2008, 02:17 PM, said:

foo, on Dec 14 2008, 01:50 PM, said:

Obviously, this auction, like any legal auction, exists.

Disagree. True, the auction 1N-3N;6N exists theoretically but there is no bridge hand consistent with both the 1NT and 6NT calls. Clearly it was this what Richard was asking about and in my opinion, there is no hand that first passes, then passes over 4D and then jumps to 5S.

...and I respectfully disagree with your disagreement.

(The jump in question is to 5S, not 4. I've edited your response appropriately.)

Give Responder an Invitational hand, particularly a flat one, and especially a flat one with D cards, and they have NO reason to take action over (4D) but every reason to do so if Opener keeps the auction alive despite Responder passing twice.

After all, Opener could very well have a minimum. Responder unilaterally deciding We have enough to make game when the auction so far only gives them Invitational values is not partnership bridge.

But if Opener keeps the auction live despite 2 passes by responder, they likely have a maximum with 5- losers in it for such a course. And if that action uncovers a double fit, there is even more good news.

In such a case, Responder's originally unexceptional Invitational hand may indeed "grow up" to be worth far more than it looks in isolation or after the first round of bidding.

Richard's 10 count becoming an ~20+ count in terms of playing strength under such circumstances is such an example.

So YES, it may be rare; but IMHO there are hands where
pa-(pa)-1H-(4D);pa-(pa)-X-(pa);5S
Could make perfect sense.

[rogerclee]

foo, on Dec 14 2008, 04:42 PM, said:

han, on Dec 14 2008, 02:17 PM, said:

foo, on Dec 14 2008, 01:50 PM, said:

Obviously, this auction, like any legal auction, exists.

Disagree. True, the auction 1N-3N;6N exists theoretically but there is no bridge hand consistent with both the 1NT and 6NT calls. Clearly it was this what Richard was asking about and in my opinion, there is no hand that first passes, then passes over 4D and then jumps to 5S.

...and I respectfully disagree with your disagreement.

(The jump in question is to 5S, not 4. I've edited your response appropriately.)

Give Responder an Invitational hand, particularly a flat one, and especially a flat one with D cards, and they have NO reason to take action over (4D) but every reason to do so if Opener keeps the auction alive despite Responder passing twice.

After all, Opener could very well have a minimum. Responder unilaterally deciding We have enough to make game when the auction so far only gives them Invitational values is not partnership bridge.

But if Opener keeps the auction live despite 2 passes by responder, they likely have a maximum with 5- losers in it for such a course. And if that action uncovers a double fit, there is even more good news.

In such a case, Responder's originally unexceptional Invitational hand may indeed "grow up" to be worth far more than it looks in isolation or after the first round of bidding.

Richard's 10 count becoming an ~20+ count in terms of playing strength under such circumstances is such an example.

So YES, it may be rare; but IMHO there are hands where
pa-(pa)-1H-(4D);pa-(pa)-X-(pa);5S
Could make perfect sense.

So many words, so few example hands!

AND THE ORIGINAL HAND BECAME A 20-COUNT? lol ok, I am afraid to see your "example hands."

[jdonn]

foo, on Dec 14 2008, 06:42 PM, said:

Give Responder an Invitational hand, particularly a flat one, and especially a flat one with D cards, and they have NO reason to take action over (4D) but every reason to do so if Opener keeps the auction alive despite Responder passing twice.

So I'm responder holding a flat invitational hand with diamond cards. My partner can reopen. Trivia question for myself: How many tricks are they taking in 4♦X?

[foo]

rogerclee, on Dec 14 2008, 06:52 PM, said:

So many words, so few example hands!

AND THE ORIGINAL HAND BECAME A 20-COUNT? lol ok, I am afraid to see your "example hands."

...and just how much do you think hands like ♠QTxxx♥KJxx♦Axxx♣- are worth?

a) if We have an 8 card fit in a major?
if We have a 9 card fit in a major or two 8 card fits in both Majors?
c) if We have two 9 card fits in both Majors?

Modify a, b, or c above by varying degrees of purity or shapeliness and re-ask the question.

Very rarely do hands with a void in them evaluate out to their HCP equivalents in playing stength. Degree of fit and value location can vary the ATT playing strength of such hands by enormous amounts.

Take another look at Richard's example hand and auction.
What hands must Opener have to justify
pa-(pa)-1H-(4D);pa-(pa)-X-(pa);??

...and what do you think this sequence implies about the playing strength of
♠QTxxx♥KJxx♦Axxx♣-
here?

After all, if We had "just" an 8 card ♥ fit, every novice in the USA would add +5 for the void and evaluate this hand as 15 Dummy points in support of ♥'s.

It MUST be better than that in the presence of a 9+ card ♥ fit. Even more if We are talking about a double 9+ card ♥ plus 8+ card ♠ fit.
...and that doesn't even take into account that for Opener to be bidding this way, they have a "moose" over there with 4+S, 5+H, most likely 1-D, and VALUES (like 18+).

Construct some 18+ count, 5- loser hands for Opener that fit the above description and see on how many such boards We have an odds on slam.

Then tell me what Richard's example hand should be valued at in the context of his 2nd auction.

[Elianna]

han, on Dec 14 2008, 11:17 AM, said:

foo, on Dec 14 2008, 01:50 PM, said:

Obviously, this auction, like any legal auction, exists.

Disagree. True, the auction 1NT-3NT-6NT exists theoretically but there is no bridge hand consistent with both the 1NT and 6NT calls. Clearly it was this what Richard was asking about and in my opinion, there is no hand that first passes, then passes over 4D and then jumps to 4S.

1NT=8-10 or 16-18. 3NT=balanced, to play over 8-10. 6NT=16-18.

Not that I've heard of anyone playing this recently. But I know people who have played these split ranges.

[jdonn]

Elianna, on Dec 14 2008, 08:02 PM, said:

han, on Dec 14 2008, 11:17 AM, said:

foo, on Dec 14 2008, 01:50 PM, said:

Obviously, this auction, like any legal auction, exists.

Disagree. True, the auction 1NT-3NT-6NT exists theoretically but there is no bridge hand consistent with both the 1NT and 6NT calls. Clearly it was this what Richard was asking about and in my opinion, there is no hand that first passes, then passes over 4D and then jumps to 4S.

1NT=8-10 or 16-18. 3NT=balanced, to play over 8-10. 6NT=16-18.

Not that I've heard of anyone playing this recently. But I know people who have played these split ranges.

Ok, how about this auction.

P P P 1♣
7NT

[blackshoe]

that's easy, Josh. Dealer forgot to look at his hand before he passed.