[han]

I used to play that if we find a major suit fit in a gameforcing auction, bids below 3M are patterning out while higher bids are cuebids. Lately I've started to play more pattern bids above 3M too, especially if the fit was found at the 3-level.

How about this auction:

1NT - 2D
2H - 3D
3H - ..

Let's assume that 3H says very little about opener's strength, and that all bids below 4H are slam tries (including 3NT). Is patterning out best here, or do you prefer to cuebid? (or perhaps something entirely different, like 3S = no shortness, 3NT, 4C = short clubs, spades)

I'm tempted to suggest the following rule. I will pattern out if these conditions are met:

1) We are in a gameforcing auction and partner has just announced a fit by bidding 3M.
2) At least one of us has clearly limited their strength.

The meaning of 3NT should depend on the auction. If I have already shown a side suit then 3NT should tend to show a 5422 (as in the above auction) while if I have not said more about my shape then it should say "slam interest, let's cuebid". In the latter case it would deny a hand where help in one particular suit is needed.

[pclayton]

Its a cue. Patterning is meaningless unless we have controls in the key suits.

3N is interesting. I generally play 3N by a hand that has already been defined as balanced is a choice of games. For instance, 1N - 2D - 2H - 3D - 3H - 3S - 3N would be this.

By the responder, it falls under our rules for frivolous / serious / 3S / 3N complex.

[han]

Wow, I disagree with basically everything you wrote Phil!

[mike777]

I think this has come up a quite a few times and the forum seems to have announced pattern bidding but I remain unconvinced.

I would cue and in general I would use 3nt as a slam try to try and get partner to cue clubs. In other words, 3nt =slam try...partner pls continue to cue in support of hearts.

[SoTired]

I vote pattern as most useful. In most cases responder is 5431 with less than slam strength and needs to identify the singleton so opener can make a slam/no slam decision. I think the situation where responder has slam strength and needs to discover a 2-loser black suit to avoid slam comes up less often.

[Echognome]

I think using transfer extensions, pattern makes more sense. You are typically half a level or more lower. I'm definitely a believer in pattern bidding if you can pattern out at a reasonable level. I find that when you pattern out at 4♣ or higher, it often leaves difficult choices for the other hand. In relays, we typically had to have extreme shape (6-5 or 7-4) shape to pattern out so high. So, I would just stick to partial pattern (knowing only 5-4 or 5-5) unless I had some gadget where I could show my pattern cheaper. Hence the beauty of Justin's convention.

[cherdano]

Echognome, on Aug 24 2007, 02:42 PM, said:

I think using transfer extensions, pattern makes more sense. You are typically half a level or more lower. I'm definitely a believer in pattern bidding if you can pattern out at a reasonable level. I find that when you pattern out at 4♣ or higher, it often leaves difficult choices for the other hand. In relays, we typically had to have extreme shape (6-5 or 7-4) shape to pattern out so high. So, I would just stick to partial pattern (knowing only 5-4 or 5-5) unless I had some gadget where I could show my pattern cheaper.

I am not sure the comparison with relays is justified. The first difference is that a fit has been established. The other that the strength of, say, responder in the auction that started 1N is already pretty limited (he is making a slam try opposite a 1N opener).

[skjaeran]

3♦ is natural and normally slammish in my methods.
3♥ shows preference, it denies 4c♦ in my methods.

3♠ would be a cuebid now, 3NT serious (no ♠ control) and 4m non-serious, lowest cuebid.

Over 3♠ openers 3NT would also be serious and 4m non-serious.

[mike777]

I think assuming 3d is slammish is a bit much. Game before slam. I think 3d is just natural, decent suits and game forcing looking for the best game at that point.
I do not think we must simply tfr and rebid 3nt with all two suited game only hands.
Granted getting to an underpoint hcp slam may be tough.

[Echognome]

cherdano, on Aug 24 2007, 01:06 PM, said:

Echognome, on Aug 24 2007, 02:42 PM, said:

I think using transfer extensions, pattern makes more sense.  You are typically half a level or more lower.  I'm definitely a believer in pattern bidding if you can pattern out at a reasonable level.  I find that when you pattern out at 4♣ or higher, it often leaves difficult choices for the other hand.  In relays, we typically had to have extreme shape (6-5 or 7-4) shape to pattern out so high.  So, I would just stick to partial pattern (knowing only 5-4 or 5-5) unless I had some gadget where I could show my pattern cheaper.

I am not sure the comparison with relays is justified. The first difference is that a fit has been established. The other that the strength of, say, responder in the auction that started 1N is already pretty limited (he is making a slam try opposite a 1N opener).

I am not intending to be critical when I say this or assume you do not know anything about relays. So please do not be offended if what I say is obvious. In *most* relay auctions, relay responder will be limited and if not, it's only one step needed for a strength ask along the way. In *all* relay auctions, relay responder will know whether a fit has been establish or not. Therefore in *some* there will be a relay with a fit and some without. In fact, the degree of fit in the side suits will be better known. (E.g., does opener have 3 or 4♥? What about the side suit fits? Is this a double fit hand?)

So I think it is analogous and the issue here is mainly what space will you have left below game to explore slam. (At least that's what my concern is.) Here I think it's problematic as responder is showing and his hand is unlimited. It is going to be difficult for opener to evaluate anything more than the degree of fit. Although I think that is a good thing, it does limit dealer's options.

[kenrexford]

This is a slightly unusual sequence, in some ways that some have alluded to. The notrump bidder is somewhat limited, although I would make the case that he is wildly unknown as to honor-card types. Internal K-Q's and external A's is wildly different than internal A's and extermal K-Q's.

One key question is whether the unbid major is used as natural or artificial, at least when the two suits are diamonds and a major. If artificial, as an acceptance of the minor, then one could argue for other calls (4♣+) should better define Opener's contribution to the cause and 3M show something different.

My style would be to give up on the third-suit other-major contract (especially if playing Batchelder Puppet) and to make 3OM the acceptance of the minor. "Acceptance" covers a lot of territory.

This enables a bit of nice science, when supporting the major:

If the major is spades, minor is diamonds:

4♣ = E.S. (I would accept a splinter in clubs)
4♥ = E.S. (I would accept a splinter in hearts)
4♠ = Terrible hand for slam, contextually
3♠ = All other non-cruddy hands, cuebidding/serious3NT/LTTC by either

If the major is spades, minor clubs, same thing, but obviously different minor E.S.

If the major is hearts, the other-minor E.S. works, but not the other-major E.S. This might induce one to add in a tool like four of Responder's minor as E.S. for the other major (if discussed), running all support bid for the minor through 3♠, or 4♥ as an E.S. for spades, running all non-E.S. hands through 3M, the latter required if 3OM does not agree the minor.

Note, though, that 3♦ agrees clubs when the hand is major-club, such that 3OM is only needed when the minor is diamonds.

[cherdano]

Matt nothing of what you say is true for any of the relay auctions I have seen played against me, or seen posted on this forum. At the point relay responder finishes describing his shape he usually still needs to be told about the fit ("Fit established" = both partners know about the fit), and he usually hasn't given more than a rough idea of his strength (never as precise as "slam invitational opposite 15-17 balanced"). "One more step ask on the way" is a big difference when you finish describing your shape at 4♣ an the fit is in hearts...

[Echognome]

cherdano, on Aug 24 2007, 03:04 PM, said:

Matt nothing of what you say is true for any of the relay auctions I have seen played against me, or seen posted on this forum. At the point relay responder finishes describing his shape he usually still needs to be told about the fit ("Fit established" = both partners know about the fit), and he usually hasn't given more than a rough idea of his strength (never as precise as "slam invitational opposite 15-17 balanced"). "One more step ask on the way" is a big difference when you finish describing your shape at 4♣ an the fit is in hearts...

By responder, do you mean responder to a strong club or relay responder (as in the one who is describing his hand)? After a limited opening bid, relay responder is often dealer. So if it is responder to a strong club, it can either be limited (starts with 1♦) or unlimited (starts with a positive). In some systems there are three ranges: double negative (limited), semi-positive (limited), or positive (unlimited). So in *most* relay auctions, relay responder is limited. Even the reverse relay with the strong club opener is typically limited (16-18 or 15-17). So I don't get where you are saying that they are unlimited. Or maybe you haven't asked enough questions?

As per the resolving by 4♣, that is very unusual. As I mentioned before, this is typically when relay responder is 6-5 or 7-4. The most common hand types are resolved at 3♣ (all 5422s), 3♦ (all 5332s and 5431s), or 3♥ (all 6331s, most 6322s, and all 6431s). The "one step" is a bypass. It asks "are you minimum for your bidding thus far? If so, bid the next step. Else, show me your controls (or slam pts)." Thus, it is indeed no big deal.

Or do you want to educate me further on what is true?

[Fluffy]

for me 3♦ is already 2542, but on similar auctions I would take bids as cuebids, not pattern out.

[Halo]

I wasn't here when the forum voted for pattern in this auction.

That would not have been my vote. Control seems better to me.

[cherdano]

Echognome, on Aug 24 2007, 05:18 PM, said:

cherdano, on Aug 24 2007, 03:04 PM, said:

Matt nothing of what you say is true for any of the relay auctions I have seen played against me, or seen posted on this forum. At the point relay responder finishes describing his shape he usually still needs to be told about the fit ("Fit established" = both partners know about the fit), and he usually hasn't given more than a rough idea of his strength (never as precise as "slam invitational opposite 15-17 balanced"). "One more step ask on the way" is a big difference when you finish describing your shape at 4♣ an the fit is in hearts...

By responder, do you mean responder to a strong club or relay responder (as in the one who is describing his hand)? After a limited opening bid, relay responder is often dealer. So if it is responder to a strong club, it can either be limited (starts with 1♦) or unlimited (starts with a positive). In some systems there are three ranges: double negative (limited), semi-positive (limited), or positive (unlimited). So in *most* relay auctions, relay responder is limited. Even the reverse relay with the strong club opener is typically limited (16-18 or 15-17). So I don't get where you are saying that they are unlimited. Or maybe you haven't asked enough questions?

As per the resolving by 4♣, that is very unusual. As I mentioned before, this is typically when relay responder is 6-5 or 7-4. The most common hand types are resolved at 3♣ (all 5422s), 3♦ (all 5332s and 5431s), or 3♥ (all 6331s, most 6322s, and all 6431s). The "one step" is a bypass. It asks "are you minimum for your bidding thus far? If so, bid the next step. Else, show me your controls (or slam pts)." Thus, it is indeed no big deal.

Or do you want to educate me further on what is true?

....
You said above that patterning out at 4♣ or higher doesn't work because your experience with relays says it doesn't work when the shape is resolved so high. Then I explain how the two are different, and you say this doesn't matter because you usually resolve the shape much lower.

[By relay responder I mean relay responder isn't this obvious from the context?]

[Echognome]

It sounds like we are just saying two different things. You are right that you said relay responder. Apologies.

As per resolution at 4♣ or higher, I am sticking with that it doesn't leave much room to explore. That is precisely why we only resolve such hands if they have extreme shape. I don't have the exact percentages in front of me (but I do at home), but I'll say that the hand types resolved at 4♣ or higher are around 5% of the hands or less.

The issue here is that you will have *common* hand types resolving at a high level with little room for the other hand to take action. Let's take the auction 1N - 2♦ - 2♥ - 3♦ - 3♥ - 4♣ showing whatever it shows. (e.g. a 3=5=4=1 and maybe also 3=5=5=0 or 2=5=5=1?) What can opener do? He can basically bid 4♦ or 4♥ or else he must bid something committing the p'ship to the 5-level (which might not always be safe). In relay this will be resolve at 3♦ (all 5431s) and there is loads of room. In transfer extensions this will be resolved at 3♠ (giving 2 more steps).

Finally, I think the two are analogous for the following reason. In relay one hand asks and the other tells. Relay asker is typically denying certain hand types by continuing to ask (unless you have not defined *any* relay breaks). Similar to the 1N opener. The reason this works well is that it's one of the relaying principles is that the balanced hand asks and the distributional hand tells, so that relay asker can evaluate shortness opposite his suits. Another benefit of being relay asker when declarer is that your hand is more unknown. That is obviously a benefit that cannot be had after you open 1NT. However, having the distributional hand *show* their hand does seem to work out well. So indeed I like the idea of patterning, just not the idea of patterning and ending so high.