[pclayton]

From one of the JEC matches:

Scoring: IMP

---

NV/NV; RHO opens 1♠, u pass, 1N forcing on left and pard flies in with 4♥. 4♠ on right, pass, pass and now partner pulls out the red card.

Do you sit or do you pull?

[mike777]

pclayton, on Aug 22 2007, 04:16 PM, said:

From one of the JEC matches:

Scoring: IMP

---

NV/NV; RHO opens 1♠, u pass, 1N forcing on left and pard flies in with 4♥. 4♠ on right, pass, pass and now partner pulls out the red card.

Do you sit or do you pull?

5H I might have a trick on offense for her.

[Echognome]

Well I'm biased in that I saw the hand. I can just say that I didn't like the action your partner chose at the time.

[Fluffy]

If LHO had raised with 2♠ a heart lead could make them lose control.

as it is now, your 5 trumps look like nothing: 5♥.

[cnszsun]

Partner rarely has a pure penalty double on such sequences, so the double may be best defined as some kind action double (D.S.I.P. in one of my old posts). It says 'i have extra offence and want to compete to 5h, but i also have some defence, what's your opinion, partner?'
So, 5h to me.

[TimG]

Looks to me like there is a good chance one of the minors will provide the side tricks declarer needs -- I wouldn't be surprised to find there are doubled overtricks available in 4♠.

[helene_t]

Does this double ask me to do something intelligent? In that case I bid 5♥.

[SoTired]

i don't understand this at all. Where in partner's 4H and X did anyone get the idea that partner was asking our opinion?

Pass

[hatchett]

Depends on how you play the double. I like to play it as I would like to save, but am doubling in case you want to defend. Hence playing with myself I would bid 5♥.

[Walddk]

I play the double as a pre-empt with some defensive values but not enough to beat it myself. I think it's called an action double. Funnily enough the correct bid in my opinion is pass if you have it set in your own hand (doesn't really happen on this auction).

So for me it's a "can you contribute with some defence, partner" double. "If not, take it out". I have zero (five baby spades won't harm declarer), so this is a clear pull to 5♥. I have three hearts more than I could have had, and with three we will never get more than one defensive heart trick.

Partner can't have three tricks outside hearts.

Three possible shapes for the 4♥ bidder: 0733, 0742 and 0724. I am hoping for 7-4 because that will make it less expensive. We get doubled and concede 100 or 300. As for 4♠ I am certain that it makes, possibly with one or two overtricks.

Roland

[asc]

Is that realy a preempt ?? He could say 4NT too (with something like that - ??????? ??? ??? ) with weak hand. PASS from me- yes no PC but my 5 trumps seems to be a good stuf.

[skjaeran]

With 3-card support and a useful doubleton this is a clear 5♥ to me.

[pclayton]

Ok - this wasn't from a JEC match , but I had to try to disguise it lest you be influenced by the other thread. It was the component hand to:

http://forums.bridgebase.com/index.php?sho...=20832&st=0&hl=

I held the 7-4 hand and bid 4♥ / x. My pard sat. I can hold it to 11 tricks, but I continued hearts at T2. -790 NV LOL.

[TimG]

I was a bit surprised by the responses in the other thread (and this one). Mostly because I figured the modern treatment for preempting and then doubling would be to express a desire to sacrifice, but not wanting to bid on if partner thought it likely the opponents had already done too much. So, I was surprised by those that bid 4H planning to double 4S to show a preempt with some defensive values. (With that hand, might as well pass and defend.)

But, maybe this is a bit different because we are in passout seat, so that we don't have to be concerned about acting in front of partner. Still, it would seem to me to be more useful to use double to show a desire to bid on.

Then again, I would have overcalled 2H, not 4H, so maybe it's my idea of a hand that would bid 4H that sways me towards this way of thinking. I would have guessed that the reason for bidding 4H directly would be to make the opponents guess last. Those that are bidding 4H followed by double seem to be guessing that the opponents guessed incorrectly. Which defeats the purpose of making them guess in the first place.

[pclayton]

TimG, on Aug 23 2007, 10:31 AM, said:

I was a bit surprised by the responses in the other thread (and this one). Mostly because I figured the modern treatment for preempting and then doubling would be to express a desire to sacrifice, but not wanting to bid on if partner thought it likely the opponents had already done too much. So, I was surprised by those that bid 4H planning to double 4S to show a preempt with some defensive values. (With that hand, might as well pass and defend.)

But, maybe this is a bit different because we are in passout seat, so that we don't have to be concerned about acting in front of partner. Still, it would seem to me to be more useful to use double to show a desire to bid on.

Then again, I would have overcalled 2H, not 4H, so maybe it's my idea of a hand that would bid 4H that sways me towards this way of thinking. I would have guessed that the reason for bidding 4H directly would be to make the opponents guess last. Those that are bidding 4H followed by double seem to be guessing that the opponents guessed incorrectly. Which defeats the purpose of making them guess in the first place.

I've seen the double be used as "I really want to take another call, but I'm doubling in case we have a set from your side", but this seems to be used when the preempt is more pure in nature, like a 1st or 2nd seat opening.

[Foxx]

This situation looks so terrifying that I'm going to have The Clash answer for me on this thing:

"Should I sit or should I go

Partner, you've got to let me know

If I run it will be trouble

And if I sit it will be double

Baby, you've got to let me know

Should I defend or should I go"

[the hog]

hatchett, on Aug 23 2007, 10:29 PM, said:

Depends on how you play the double. I like to play it as I would like to save, but am doubling in case you want to defend. Hence playing with myself I would bid 5♥.

Do you often play with yourself? Sorry I couldn't resist that.

I would bid 5H as well for the reasons already espoused.
SoTired, I am afraid you are playing in a vacuum, not with a partner.

[Codo]

I think this really depends on your agreements for 4 ♥ and X.
Without agreements I had taken it as: PD I had bid 4 Heart because I wanted to make. I have defensive values and now will penalisze them. In this case pass is clear cut.

Of course the "modern" approach with: "I want to bid on, what do you think?" is much better.

Anyway I had blame my pd to bid 4 ♥ and X with the given hand. 4 ♥ was a popular choice but I see no reason for the double.