[jillybean]

---

[Gerben42]

I would pass the same hand with ♠J instead of a small one in tempo. Using Ben's "excuse for opening non-opening hand" points, also called Zar it would qualify:

Rule of 20 points: 18
Controls: 3
Long vs short suit: 5

Zar: 26

but really it's highly misleading to open this hand.

By the way what's with the new signature?

[hrothgar]

Three suiters are open much better on defense than on offensive. The opponents are almost guaranteed to run into a bad split, which takes away much of the incentive to preempt them in the bidding.

Playing MOSCITO, this hand is too weak to open. MOSCITO has a lot of gimmicks to systemically support light opening bids. I'll happily open most 5-4-3-1 9 counts and many 5-5-2-1 eight counts. However, we made a systemic decision NOT to open light with balanced or three suited patterns. Holding a balanced hand or a three suiter, will typically require a decent 11 count.

I consider opening this in the context of a standard style almost unthinkable.

[inquiry]

I happily open 1♣ and I will rebid that anemic ♠ suit at the one level if I get a chance.

Change the club Q to the club JACK and I would still open, change it to the club ten, and well, ok, I would pass. Change the diamond ACE to diamond King, I would pass.

I like the shape, just hope partner doesn't preempt in hearts. I like the values in my minors. I like biddign when I have an "excuse". Here I have an easy excuse, I have an opening hand.

Goren would evaluate this hand as 12 points (9 hcp, 3 points for the void). That is close to what he would open. Bergen would evalaute this hand as 18 if I counted it correctly, and I think 20 Bergen points are needed for an opening. And Zar points it is clearly 26, and holding 25 ZAR points with 4+ spades is "worth" an opening.

So only by ZAR (of these three) is this worthy of an opening. But I really, really like 4450 shape. We have three possible suits for a fit, and if a fit is found, this hand gets a ton of bonus points for the void. So I will open it and will be in a huge minority to do so. I often overbid, however, it should be pointed out. Now you see why.

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

first of all you need to specify the system.
Assuming Stsandard American (SAYC similar)
with 2/1 promising a rebid, my anser is no.

After a 1C opening I wont face the problems related
to a 2/1 answer, but what is the most likely bidding seq.

1C (1) - 1H (2)
1S (3) - 2D (4)

(1) ok
(2) what else
(3) ok
(4) forcing to game with a bal. 12 count
with no fit or inv. with 10-12 bal. and
no fit

If you make it 5 spades, the 2/1 problematic kicks
in, you will encounter lots of ugly seq., and it is not
worth it.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[jillybean]

Playing with a never to be seen again, pickup partner; I did open 1♣ I wouldnt try this with everyone. My partner of course took me for a much better hand and wouldn't stop bidding. We played 5♦x= , so no complaints from p this time. The opps had a ♥ game.

And this is the disaster that prompted the new signature:

Scoring: IMP

---

West North East South

 Pass  1♥    Pass  1♠
 Pass  2♣    Pass  3♥
 Pass  Pass  Pass  

[jtfanclub]

Four Spades Good, Four Hearts Bad.

You know, I keep finding hands that I would open in SA that I would not think of opening in Precision. I think it's a discomfort thing...in SA I'm not comfortable with any response to partner's 1♥ opening. I'm not even really comfortable with responding to partner's 1♠ opening accurately.

If I was more proficient with SA, I'd probably feel better about passing this hand.

[Gerben42]

Quote

You know, I keep finding hands that I would open in SA that I would not think of opening in Precision. I think it's a discomfort thing...in SA I'm not comfortable with any response to partner's 1♥ opening. I'm not even really comfortable with responding to partner's 1♠ opening accurately.

Strange, for me the reverse is true. The whole point of Precision 1-level limited opening bids is that you can lower the minimum. In SA you have to cope with the 20-counts as well and opening light makes life much harder.

[hrothgar]

jillybean2, on May 29 2007, 06:21 PM, said:

And this is the disaster that prompted the new signature:

Dealer: West Vul: EW Scoring: IMP

♠ QT ♥ KJ942 ♦ Q2 ♣ KQ97 ♠ KJ9762 ♥ A85 ♦ KJ ♣ 53

West  North East  South

Pass  1♥    Pass  1♠
Pass  2♣    Pass  3♥
Pass  Pass  Pass 

I was sitting North on this one.

In retrospect, I think that I should have accepted the invite and bid 4♥. The QT of Spades revalues a lot after partner's bid.

[jillybean]

I bid 3♥ with slam in mind...

[han]

Kathryn, 2D does not show slam interest .

It could be just a gameforcing hand where you are not sure yet about the strain you want to play in.

[han]

I voted for "no", because this is a clear no to me and the other explanations for no are not valid.

[jillybean]

Hannie, on May 29 2007, 08:43 AM, said:

Kathryn, 2D does not show slam interest .

fixed?

[P_Marlowe]

Hannie, on May 29 2007, 10:44 AM, said:

I voted for "no", because this is a clear no to me and the other explanations for no are not valid.

same for me, but I just wanted to explain, why
it is a "No".

With kind regards
Marlowe

[inquiry]

jillybean2, on May 29 2007, 10:21 AM, said:

Playing with a never to be seen again, pickup partner; I did open 1♣ I wouldnt try this with everyone. My partner of course took me for a much better hand and wouldn't stop bidding. We played 5♦x= , so no complaints from p this time. The opps had a ♥ game.

Well Zar helps if you are going to be bidding your 18 hcp games in a minor is difficult to do if neither of the partners with 9 hcp will open.

I looked it up, Jilly's partner held

Ax
xxx
KJTx
JTxx

Loses 1S, 1C. HAve to guess the diamond queen correctly, and they can't ruff a club. Actually 4♥ is down for them if you ever lead a club before they knock out the spade ACE. But 3♥ for them is cold, and 4♦/4♣ makes for you if you even if you misguess the ♦Q.

This is why you open these things... cause when it is good, it is very very good. Springing this on a pickup partner, however, probably should be avoided. And oh, your partner did stop bidding at 4♦, it was you who took the push over 4♥. A great decision as it turns out. But then you realized that you had "extras" with the heart void. Your hand zoomed on presumed 9 card fit to 26 original zar points, plus misfit points, 3 in hearts, 2 likely in clubs (partner never offered club raise to show four), odds are 2 in spades. That comes to 26+7 = 33, partners biddign suggest around 24/25 = 33+24 = 57, 56 needed for five level contract.

One hand, of course, proves nothing. And pass could be a winner. I do note 13 out of 16 played in hearts. Jilly was only person to open this hand. One got to 5♦ when this hand passed intially and doubled 1♥ opening bid on right and then leaped to 5♦ when his partner bid 3♦ over 2♥ raise. Another bid 5♦ after passing twice. RHO opened 1NT, LHO bid 2♦ jacoby and his partner doubled. He bid 5♦ willy nilly.

[han]

jillybean2, on May 29 2007, 10:46 AM, said:

Hannie, on May 29 2007, 08:43 AM, said:

Kathryn, 2D does not show slam interest .

fixed?

Yes, this is perfect.

[jtfanclub]

Gerben42, on May 29 2007, 10:30 AM, said:

Strange, for me the reverse is true. The whole point of Precision 1-level limited opening bids is that you can lower the minimum. In SA you have to cope with the 20-counts as well and opening light makes life much harder.

Well, yes, that's how it's supposed to work.

I just keep finding myself paralyzed. Suppose the auction goes...

P-P-1♥-P back to me.

My partner opened 3rd hand, not vulnerable vs. vulnerable. If I pass, partner will have 4 spades and an 18 count and we take all 13 tricks. If I bid 1♠, either we'll end up in 3NT and watch the opponents take the first 5 tricks in spades or else partner will have a ratty 10 count and we'll end up in something doubled for 300 or 500 when the opponents can't make anything either.

If I open, and it goes 1♣-1♥-1♠-2♦, I have an easy 3♦ call, I think. For a system that's supposed to be a two-way exchange of information, SA seems remarkably bad at describing responder's hand when he doesn't like opener's major.

But again, that's probably my lack of skill, not inherent in the system.

[Free]

Only playing MOSCITO I'd open this 1♥ showing my weakest suit (4+♠)

[jillybean]

Hannie, on May 29 2007, 08:44 AM, said:

I voted for "no", because this is a clear no to me and the other explanations for no are not valid.

Han, lighten up! Read the sub title of this thread, the poll is quite meaningless but hopefully creates a few smiles. This game is sometimes taken far too seriously

Scoring: IMP

---

West North East South

 -     -     -     1♣
 Pass  1♦    1♥    2♦
 2♥    3♦    3♥    Pass
 Pass  4♦    Pass  Pass
 4♥    Pass  Pass  5♦
 Dbl   Pass  Pass  Pass
 

[goobers]

Wow, north sure bid a lot......... (edit: never mind, I didn't really think as I typed that)

And EW sure took their sweet time crawling to 4H