[jillybean]

Hi,

After the auction P (1♥) Dbl (2♥) does anyone use a smart method to show both minors?
I cannot imagine many hands where I would want to bid 2nt naturally after passing in 1st seat. Is 2nt workable or am I better to bid my suits if I am strong enough?

ty
jb

[whereagles]

dbl or 4NT depending on shape and playing strength

eventually 3♦ + some nr. of clubs if neither of the above feel right

[han]

Most people play double as responsive here, a protoshape is 3244, so you can use that with most minor oriented hands. Using 2NT for the minors as well makes sense (I play that).

[Codo]

99,5 % of all experts will understand 2 NT as showing something special. I guess well above the half will understand it as: Choose your minor.
If you prefer to play 2 NT as Lebensohl, you can play a responsiove double to show both minors.

[FrancesHinden]

You have both double and 2NT as potentially artificial bids. You can combine them in various ways:

x shows both minors, 2S shows spades, 2NT lebensohl (competing in a minor or invitational with 4 spades)

x shows spades & a minor, 2NT both minors

or the one I prefer:

x shows any two suits, 2NT lebensohl.

You don't lose out that I have found by playing double as any two suits, and you gain a huge amount from not playing delicate 4-3 spade fits.

[jdonn]

I prefer double is values and tends to be balanced, and 2NT is minors. But most things people use are fine. Good place to have an agreement.

[the hog]

We play that 2NT here is lebenhol, after all the auction is analogous to
(2H) X (P) ?
So it is nice to have an agreement that shows the range of your bids.

To show the ms we X.

[han]

A big difference between 1H-X-2H and 2H-X is that we are not forced to bid. Therefore our minimum for a bid is higher and there is less need for lebensohl and I prefer scrambling (here minors). I agree that lebensohl can still be useful though.

[Fluffy]

I never use 2NT as natural on competition, with the exception when partner has shown a source of tricks (almost only when he has overcalled 2m).

[helene_t]

Dbl and 2N both ask partner to pick a minor. 2N is more distributional, though. If LHO passes it usually doesn't matter. But if LHO raises to 3♥, partner will be more eager to compete with 4m if you bid 2N than if you doubled.

Also, if opps have spades, the situation is slightly different:
(1♠)-x-(2♠)-x
(pass)-?

With a hand like
x-AJxxx-KJxx-Axx
partner will now bid 3♥ but he would have bid 3♦ if you had bid 2N.

[jtfanclub]

jillybean2, on May 27 2007, 05:25 PM, said:

I cannot imagine many hands where I would want to bid 2nt naturally after passing in 1st seat.

How do you plan to bid your 9-11 hcp balanced hand with a double heart stop if led around to you?

Say,

xxx
KQTx (or KQT or KJTx or AQx or...)
AJTx
xx

Will I be unhappy if partner bids 3NT with a 4-1-4-4 16 count? Heck no. Would we find game if I bid 3♦ instead? No. Do I think I have enough to bid game on my own? Nah, don't want to punish partner when he's got a 10 count as well.

I know, I'm not an expert, and I suppose that 99% of experts don't play this way. I haven't figured out why yet. 2♥ is noise- RHO could have absolute crap, and I'm sure I'm not the only person to raise partner with a doubleton on this auction.

As responder to the X, I'm just not worried about having a bid to show exactly 6-5 in the minors or whatever. I want to be in 3NT when it's the right place to play, which is a goodly percentage of the time, and I want to be the one playing it, since partner's unlikely to have a heart stop. To me, finding 3NT when it's there is the #1 priority.

jdonn says

Quote

I prefer double is values and tends to be balanced, and 2NT is minors

The big difference I see here is that hands that I would play at 2NT he either plays at 2♥X or 3 of a minor. I'm not convinced that that's better, but I'm not convinced it's worse either.

Since it's hearts, this is darned easy, it seems to me. If I X and pull 2♠ to 2NT, i have an invitational hand with both minors (if I have less than invitational count, I flip a coin and pick a minor). If I pull to a minor, it's an invitational hand with the minor. With spades, it's tougher, since now I'd have to invite at the 4 level. Ick.

Still, I think X as 'responsive unless I correct' and 2NT as natural and invitational is the way to go. But then, I don't have the horror of playing at 2NT that the experts do. Maybe that's coming.

[P_Marlowe]

It makes a lot of sense, that 2NT shows both
minors, more precise asking partner to bid
his longest moinor.
If you now convert to 3S, you may even show
a strong (inv. raise) oppossite to a weak direct
jump.

Depending on the req. you have for the t/o
oppossite a passed partner.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[P_Marlowe]

jtfanclub, on May 29 2007, 09:51 AM, said:

jillybean2, on May 27 2007, 05:25 PM, said:

I cannot imagine many hands where I would want to bid 2nt naturally after passing in 1st seat.

How do you plan to bid your 9-11 hcp balanced hand with a double heart stop if led around to you?

Say,

xxx
KQTx (or KQT or KJTx or AQx or...)
AJTx
xx

<snip>

Hi,

depends a bit on the min req. you have for
a t/o oppossite a passed partner.

I prefer a light style, which means I may loose
out, if partner is strong and I am super max,
I will win, if the points are venly distributed.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[han]

jtfanclub, on May 29 2007, 09:51 AM, said:

I know, I'm not an expert, and I suppose that 99% of experts don't play this way. I haven't figured out why yet.

Many experts use an artificial 2NT in many auctions, think lebensohl and good/bad, scrambling and unusual. This isn't because the natural 2NT call is useless. There are hands with which you would like to make the invitational 2NT call. However, most experts think that it is more useful to use 2NT for scrambling or lebensohl.

I don't think it is rediculous to play 2NT as natural, not at all. But I do think that the other two uses are considerably better.

With the hand you gave (xxx KQ10x AJ10x xx) I would be happy to pass. This hand has a lot more defense than offense, I don't think our chances for 8 tricks are very good if partner has a minimal TO double. If partner does have the 4144 16-count then we will get another chance to act, and we can convert the second double for penalties or bid 3NT.

Change the hand slightly and I would bid 3D, even if the natural 2NT was available. Give me a 3-4-3-3 12-count with these hearts and I would really like to bid 2NT. That hand will probably play badly opposite a takeout double and 3NT (which is probably our only choice) will probably be against the odds.

Fortunately I don't have that exact hand very often. Make it slightly stronger and you have a comfortable 3NT. Make it weaker and you can pass.