Winstonm, on Mar 8 2007, 08:38 PM, said:
luke warm, on Mar 8 2007, 06:48 PM, said:
Winstonm, on Mar 7 2007, 07:12 PM, said:
So in a sense I agree with you that to understand the religious nature of the enemy is relevant due to need to understand the groups hierarchy and how the leaders influence the group, but that they specifically suicide bomb is not really relevant.
yes, of course it's relevant... any group that commits atrocities with a view toward some eternal reward must be understood in order to combat it... that assumes it's possible to combat
You are making a statement of your beliefs without any accompanying justification.
it's true, i wasn't attempting to justify what i said and i'm surprised you'd object to that since i viewed it as a basic agreement with your (also unjustified) statement that "... I agree with you that to understand the religious nature of the enemy is relevant..."
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I would argue that there is no difference among Charles Manson and his followers, David Koresh and his followers, and Osama bin Laden and his followers other than the size of the group in the last case can cause more harm - but that is due simply to size of group and not differences in beliefs.
i find this strange since in your earlier post you said, "I was not attempting to compare the actions of one group to another, so whether Jim Jones's clan were terrorists or not is immaterial to my point..." it seems you are now saying there is no difference (a comparison) while earlier denying any such comparison... in any case, it's my opinion that there are glaring differences between the groups, having mainly to do with motive..
charles manson was a psychopath who killed for the sheer thrill of it... he would not be a terrorist according to my definition (and remember, we had a whole thread on that - since imo nobody really stepped forward with a more acceptable one, i still use mine), since he wasn't interested in changing a nation or nations to his beliefs... david koresh was a self-proclaimed messiah who lived with his followers in relative solitude and peace, until the govenment got overinvolved... i wouldn't consider him a terrorist for the same reason... while he might have been happy to convert the rest of us, he didn't kill indiscriminately to do so... bin laden fits my definition, so there is (in my mind) a huge difference
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If you believe there are differences among my three examples, how do you then explain moderate Islam? If there are at least as many moderate Islamists as there are radical Islamists the only rational explanation for the difference is in what they are taught - from the same book; teachings and influences are the province of the leaders of the groups.
i explain moderate islam by saying islam is generally considered a religion of peace whose message has been perverted by an error introduced into its teachings... the same way i explain "moderate" christianity when comparing it to, for example, the crusades... so yes, what they are taught (and believe) is a rational explanation though possibly not the only one... however, that in no way means that bin laden is any less a terrorist
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Manson followers killed. Koresh's followers killed. Jones's followers killed. The fact that they killed in a different method than bin Laden's does not to me make any difference.
you focus on the method and not the motive, and that seems to imply motive plays no part... you are free to define "terrorist" any way you want, but i've given my reasons why i differentiate between those groups... you'll have to formulate your own definition of terrorism, one that would include all those people/groups you mentioned
"Paul Krugman is a stupid person's idea of what a smart person sounds like." Newt Gingrich (paraphrased)