[wuudturner]

In response to jillybean's original question... I would bid 1NT. No question about it. No, I'm not in love with the hand. But if I have a hand with sufficient values to bid, then I need to bid. Not doing so erodes partnership trust, and that is a tremendously valuable thing. I cannot count the number of times I've bid to some seemingly insane (but good) contract merely because I had absolute trust in partner to have the hand they had shown in the bidding.

The hand is slow. No majors, but then 1NT denies a major. And the odds are quite good that partner has something in the majors, and given the shape of my hand, a possible shape for partner is 4=4=3=2. My QJx in diamonds will fit with partner's suit. And even the club 10 and the heart 9 are cards that while they don't count in terms of "points" they improve any honors that lie above them. This hand is not a pass, but a bid. Partner can even have enough that we can make game. Passing there will not be a good thing.

Should I bid 1♥ instead of 1NT? I suppose it is better than passing. But on a bad day, partner might decide to raise my "suit" on 3 card support. I see no good reason to fear 1NT, nor any reason to lie about the shape of my hand. While I am sometimes willing to lie about my hand when it is right, when I have a descriptive bid available, I use it. Never choose your bid or call out of fear. I say that especially to those who want to pass, because they are afraid of playing 1NT.

How many points does partner have? Can they have an 11 count piece of crap? SIGH. NO. Regardless of partnership trust issues, your hand has a 6 count. That leaves 34 points around the table. How are they distributed? Assume that everyone opens on a 12 count these days. Pretty common, even though we can all find 12 point POS hands we might pass. In fact, I'll usually open 11 count hands, and that is true of many others. So when both opps have chosen to pass, give them each a 8-10 count, maybe someone has a flat 11. That leaves partner with 14+ most of the time. It means partner will pretty much never have an 11 point POS in 4th seat, and if they do, then they forgot to pass. And if partner does have more than 14, then they are unbalanced, or they have more than a 15-17 point 1NT, because they chose not to bid 1NT. TRUST YOUR PARTNER! If partner bids again, then I'll probably be able to make 2NT, and if they are good enough to put me in 3NT, I'll have a shot at it too.

And here is a problem for this hand, as posted in the novice forum. My choice of bid may not be right for everyone, partly because I will play the hand well. It also relies on the fact that when I play bridge, my partner will be good enough, someone I trust to know enough to pass in 4th seat on a poor hand. Again, an important factor is partnership trust. Build it. Use it. Have faith in partner. And have faith, that If the hand does turn turtle, that partner will just go onto the next hand with you, knowing that you made the right decision and played the hand as well as possible. At most, if it does go bad, the first person to say something will be me: "SP, I might have passed there". We will discuss the hand later on, AFTER the session is over, but only then.

So is pass right for a complete novice? Honestly, I think not. Getting into an occasional complicated contract teaches you how to play the hand better, how to survive problem hands. And that is the way to improve at bridge.

[thepossum]

I have a few other hands recently where 1NT did not work out and pass does
Eventually you may get to a contract that scores positive or even that opps overreach - positive again
But I should not cherry pick hands to prove a point lol
But as a more calm follow up. I saw merit in the 1 heart mini-psyche and even 3 diamonds inverted minor. But with only 3 I prefer a pass

And without wanting to read any embarassing followup to my hurt reaction to something earlier, some of us are dealing with rather evil situtaions and sometimes react to the wrong things. I have apologised to Diana Eva but also to the group. My reactions on forums are sometime controlled by 24/7 rubbish elsewhere. That is all I can say. I have been hiding somewhat. Not from shame, just embarassment and wishing to risk further hurt. I think maybe some people do not understand the craziness some of us deal with and the effect it has on ability to respond calmy to misunderstood personal slights. Sometimes those small put downs can touch a nerve caused by the huge fry some of us have to deal with. Sorry folks

[Huibertus]

mikl_plkcc, on 2025-May-23, 09:18, said:

You are doomed.

No you are not, this sequence won't happen. They hold 24 HCP. and someone is going to bid. If they don't bid after all you'll be playing 2 ♣, and points are 12-12 and they are balanced, you'll make 3 top ♣ 1/2 ♥ ruffs and 1/2 ♠ tricks. That is not doom that is stealing the part score or better for a decent result percentage wise as they will make 8-9 tricks in 1/2/3 NT.

[pescetom]

 thepossum, on 2025-May-23, 03:47, said:

I thought people open light in 4th seat

I would be grateful if you could cite a book or authoritative article that encourages one to open light in 4th seat.
This is N/B forum and people need sound advice, not wild ideas.

[hrothgar]

pescetom, on 2025-May-26, 05:07, said:

I would be grateful if you could cite a book or authoritative article that encourages one to open light in 4th seat.
This is N/B forum and people need sound advice, not wild ideas.

So, some of this is relative, however, suppose that you're playing Roth - Stone or some other system with very sound opening bids in first / second.

As a consequence you need to open light in 3rd / 4th

[mikeh]

hrothgar, on 2025-May-26, 06:07, said:

So, some of this is relative, however, suppose that you're playing Roth - Stone or some other system with very sound opening bids in first / second.

As a consequence you need to open light in 3rd / 4th

Had to laugh. R-S had some features that became popular but their opening bid style, in 1st and 2nd, definitely wasn’t one of them.

[hrothgar]

mikeh, on 2025-May-26, 14:32, said:

Had to laugh. R-S had some features that became popular but their opening bid style, in 1st and 2nd, definitely wasn’t one of them.

The ask was for a book or a reference...
No one said that it had to be a modern one or a popular one or...

With this said and done, I do recall claims that 4th seat openings needed to be light to protect against sound first / second seat actions in the context of Eastern Scientific a 25 or so years ago

[bluenikki]

hrothgar, on 2025-May-26, 15:13, said:

The ask was for a book or a reference...
No one said that it had to be a modern one or a popular one or...

With this said and done, I do recall claims that 4th seat openings needed to be light to protect against sound first / second seat actions in the context of Eastern Scientific a 25 or so years ago

Alvin Roth's 1953 book's Chapter 9 was "The Sub-Minimum Opening Bid in Third or Fourth Position." He lays out the minimum requirements and describes which responses are forcing (!)

But nowhere does he say that the 3rd/4th bidder is under any pressure to open light.

[jillybean]

---

[P_Marlowe]

jillybean, on 2025-May-26, 20:26, said:

---

Pass.

Playing a weak NT system, you could bid 1NT even without a stopper, you are partially protected by
p holding a strong NT or if he is unbal., he will bid again, but in a strong NT system 1NT should
promise a stopper. And double is out, you cant handle a 2H response, hence pass.

If you cant stand pass for whatever reason, bid 2D.

[mike777]

Pass seems fine

[AL78]

P_Marlowe, on 2025-May-26, 23:22, said:

Pass.

Playing a weak NT system, you could bid 1NT even without a stopper, you are partially protected by
p holding a strong NT or if he is unbal., he will bid again, but in a strong NT system 1NT should
promise a stopper. And double is out, you cant handle a 2H response, hence pass.

If you cant stand pass for whatever reason, bid 2D.

I play Acol weak NT with most people and I've always played a 1NT response after an opponent overcalls promises a stopper. I didn't know this wasn't a thing anymore.

[akwoo]

AL78, on 2025-May-28, 15:18, said:

I play Acol weak NT with most people and I've always played a 1NT response after an opponent overcalls promises a stopper. I didn't know this wasn't a thing anymore.

Ditto playing weak NT 2/1 descended from Kaplan-Sheinwold.

---------

On the original issue: lots of beginners bid timidly (and have timid bidding agreements that require them to pass a lot) because: (a) -100 feels worse than -110, and they can't overcome that psychology, and (b) they play against opponents who get into plenty of trouble without any pressure from them, so the payoff from aggressive bidding is less. Then if they ever play in fields with good players, they get stolen blind left and right.

[P_Marlowe]

AL78, on 2025-May-28, 15:18, said:

I play Acol weak NT with most people and I've always played a 1NT response after an opponent overcalls promises a stopper. I didn't know this wasn't a thing anymore.

I was playing Acol 15-20 years ago.
We never really discussed this and just responded 1NT, if the bid was in range.
It worked (*). Anyway this is certainly not mainstream, and nowadays, even playing weak NT,
the 1NT responds showes a stopper for us.

(*) Why it worked may have had various reasons, it was never alerted, ... why?,we did not discuss this
and were unaware that this was something special,it seemed natural, also the quality of opponents
and so on.