[jillybean]

---

MP

[Cyberyeti]

Double, what else

[mikeh]

If this seems close, you’re making life far too difficult. How one could even contemplate some call other than double scares the heck out of me.

[jillybean]

The problem comes later

---

[paulg]

Still cannot see the problem - I double again.

[mikeh]

Assuming the 3D was a weak raise, once again I fail to see the problem. Partner shouldn’t be bidding 3M over 3D with a weak hand, even with a 5 card suit. While doing so ‘works’ when doubler has a useful minimum, and even down 1 is good v -110, he should be passing since doubler might have a legitimate raise to game, expecting a more constructive hand. Bidding on crap has a tendency to handcuff partner. If he passes, catering to the crap hand, games will be missed when advancer has his values. If he bids, expecting partner to have his values, then you turn a plus into a minus when he doesn’t.

And when doubler has a good hand, passing allows him to double again and the partnership usually lands on its feet, since both players have done a decent job of describing their hands.

Thus this is an easy second double. Would I prefer 4=4=1=4, same hcp? Absolutely. This hand is close to a minimum precisely because of the imperfect shape, but good players don’t pass out 3D with this hand.

[jillybean]

3♦ was not weak

---

[mikeh]

Weak is the most common approach these days. I used to play weak in a major but limit in a minor, but realized that doing so gave the opponents too much of an edge…after 1D (x) 2N as a weak raise allowed 4th seat, with a borderline hand, the ability to pass and bid later, since opener could never have a hand on which he should pass 2N. Bidding 3D weak puts 4th seat under pressure…if he passes, that often ends the auction.

I would ask that you provide the strength info about 3D in the OP. I doubt I’m the only one who assumed ‘weak’.

Also, it would have allowed an objective answer, now impossible since we can see that doubling again fails miserably….yes, I see how we could go +100 but in real life partner is bidding the doomed 3S.

Doing the best I can….assuming east showed a limit raise, we can pretty much assume partner has between 0 and 3 hcp, unlikely to be as many as 3. We have precisely the wrong number of diamonds. If we had a stiff, we can get ruffs in our hand. If we had 3, partner may have a stiff.

We have defence but not a lot of offence. -50 or even -100 might be a good score but we do seem to have a shot at 4 tricks on defence opposite a Yarborough, so I think it to be an error to assume that (a) 3D makes and (b) we won’t go for a worse number…imagine partner with 3=3=2=5…it’s easy to see how 4C could be a disaster.

So pass has a lot going for it. I’m a notoriously (in my circles) conservative bidder so I might find the pass. I doubt it’d be popular amongst my peers. Heck, it’s only mps. Imagine partner with xxx Jxxxx xx Jxx. We have a decent play for 140. Tbh, I think I’d probably double a second time, if only because my partners would in my shoes and getting a bad board from being aggressive feels better than getting a bad board from being too conservative.

I’m assuming club level players. Against top rated pairs, pass is even more compelling a choice since not only will they usually not leak a trick but they might even be able to double (not on the actual hand, though…they don’t know we are 2=2 in diamonds).

[jillybean]

mikeh, on 2025-January-11, 00:35, said:

I would ask that you provide the strength info about 3D in the OP. I doubt I’m the only one who assumed ‘weak’.

I gave you all the information we had during the auction.
Given the lack of information during the auction, south must bid 3S here?

[mikeh]

jillybean, on 2025-January-11, 07:41, said:

I gave you all the information we had during the auction.
Given the lack of information during the auction, south must bid 3S here?

Goes to show….I suspect you assumed weak. Always ask

[jillybean]

mikeh, on 2025-January-11, 10:07, said:

Goes to show….I suspect you assumed weak. Always ask

I did. I am going to ask every time , and be Ms Popular again

[bluenikki]

jillybean, on 2025-January-11, 12:58, said:

I did. I am going to ask every time , and be Ms Popular again

Facetoface, you don't need to ask. Just look at the card.

[jillybean]

bluenikki, on 2025-January-11, 20:31, said:

Facetoface, you don't need to ask. Just look at the card.

There are no CC's in most club games and tournaments "here". If there is a CC, it likely won't be fully completed, unless you are playing in the top bracket.
Or the player is sitting on their CC, has it securely tucked away under their bidding box, it's not readily available for the opponents. Don't get me started.

[P_Marlowe]

jillybean, on 2025-January-11, 07:41, said:

I gave you all the information we had during the auction.
Given the lack of information during the auction, south must bid 3S here?

Yes.

Obv. The strength of the 3D matters, but move the Queen of clubs into openers hand,
and responders hand starts to look like a max. for a preemptive 3D bid.
If the opponents dont have a mixed raise av. 3D will be it, and you will be told,
that 3D denies inv. strength. Is this the same as weak, ..., you enter style territority,
disclosure is messy.
And this assumes, the opponents have discussed the range of a 3D non inv. bid.
The 3D is limited by the failure to make a power showing XX.

[mycroft]

Whether it was weak or otherwise, one of my rules is "a takeout double does not become a penalty double later." (okay, when we're in forcing pass territory, sure.) If you have a "huge hand with stoppers", and this auction is perpetrated on you, either sit or bid 3NT and hope. Double is still takeout.

And "I take out my partner's takeout doubles". Therefore 3♠. Yeah, it sucks. It looks like this time, you're +100 instead of -something. But that's resulting.

Would I find the pass with 15 if I knew 3♦ was limit, passed? Well, -100 is a better score than -110. Do I expect it to make? Yeah, I do. Do I go for 500 sometimes? Yeah. Do I change my system based on one hand? No.

[mycroft]

Whether it was weak or otherwise, one of my rules is "a takeout double does not become a penalty double later." (okay, when we're in forcing pass territory, sure.) If you have a "huge hand with stoppers", and this auction is perpetrated on you, either sit or bid 3NT and hope. Double is still takeout.

And "I take out my partner's takeout doubles". Therefore 3♠. Yeah, it sucks. It looks like this time, you're +100 instead of -something. But that's resulting.

Would I find the pass with 15 if I knew 3♦ was limit, passed? Well, -100 is a better score than -110. Do I expect it to make? Yeah, I do. Do I go for 500 sometimes? Yeah. Do I change my system based on one hand? No.