[jillybean]

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Please be aware this is posted in the N&B forum - nothing too far fetched

[akwoo]

It would be nice if you have some way of both showing diamond support and inviting slam (while reserving the right to play in 3N or 4N). (Bonus: Going slow lets us find 7♦ if partner has the magic hand for it.)

Barring that, I'd blast 6♦ or 6N, depending on partner's declaring skills and the field. Maybe with a nervous partner who doesn't like going down I'll bid only 4N.

[mw64ahw]

The N&Bs I know will do the Gerber.

[Cyberyeti]

Is the diamond 3+ or 4+ ?

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

6NT

Obviously you can bid 6D as well, but bal. vs bal.
You have 32, and you have undervalued Aces,
and you are NOT 4333, go for the optimistic route.
The alternative being 4NT quant.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[jillybean]

 Cyberyeti, on 2024-November-26, 02:42, said:

Is the diamond 3+ or 4+ ?

I expect 4, could be 3334 with an awkward rebid.

[Cyberyeti]

 jillybean, on 2024-November-26, 05:12, said:

I expect 4, could be 3334 with an awkward rebid.

What are my arrangements ? 3♣ nat/art and if art, how do we rebid ?

I would have started with 2♦ inverted so had a very different auction, but 6♦/6N both in the frame.

Pairs/teams ?

[P_Marlowe]

 jillybean, on 2024-November-26, 05:12, said:

I expect 4, could be 3334 with an awkward rebid.

Since this is B/I, we know the rebid.
The question is, what gets opened holding 432 in clubs and AKQ in diamonds, and is the rebid 2NT with
a 4 card spade suit or 1S?

[apollo1201]

We have a much better hand than its 14-count suggests: 3 A, some intermediaries, not the deradful 4333 pattern, and a golden DQ complementing our suit which is BTW facing partner s likely 4-cd suit.

So we need to drive to slam.

If 5NT pick a slam is not available then we have to blast it, we could try 6D at IMPs and 6NT at MPs.

[jillybean]

 Cyberyeti, on 2024-November-26, 05:36, said:

What are my arrangements ? 3♣ nat/art and if art, how do we rebid ?

I would have started with 2♦ inverted so had a very different auction, but 6♦/6N both in the frame.

Pairs/teams ?

This pair will have very few agreements. MP

I too would have started gf2D but that does not seem to be popular when holding a 4cM

[pescetom]

Even N/B play various flavours of 5cM 2/1 and the discussion has to take account of this. Some will play 1D is always 4+, some will always respond 1M with a 4 card major, some will do both or neither.

But I don't think it makes much difference as the best advice at this level (and a bit higher too, IMO) is to bid 6NT. N/B don't play IMPs and don't know how to bid a minor slam precisely either.

[Cyberyeti]

 pescetom, on 2024-November-26, 10:08, said:

Even N/B play various flavours of 5cM 2/1 and the discussion has to take account of this. Some will play 1D is always 4+, some will always respond 1M with a 4 card major, some will do both or neither.

But I don't think it makes much difference as the best advice at this level (and a bit higher too, IMO) is to bid 6NT. N/B don't play IMPs and don't know how to bid a minor slam precisely either.

The only reason to agree diamonds is to avoid a stupidity opposite KQJ, KQ, Jxxx, KQJ which N/B still value as 18, and play at the 5 level.

[pescetom]

 Cyberyeti, on 2024-November-26, 10:13, said:

The only reason to agree diamonds is to avoid a stupidity opposite KQJ, KQ, Jxxx, KQJ which N/B still value as 18, and play at the 5 level.

As hrothgar and others have rightly pointed out on this forum, hand evaluation (and joint hand evaluation) should be taught before bidding... unfortunately it is rarely so.
OTOH if they are going to make this mistake, better that they do so and go down. They are playing to learn, not to win. The important thing is that someone competent can explain to them what went wrong.

[akwoo]

 pescetom, on 2024-November-26, 10:50, said:

As hrothgar and others have rightly pointed out on this forum, hand evaluation (and joint hand evaluation) should be taught before bidding... unfortunately it is rarely so.

I strongly disagree with this for most of our beginners.

Hand evaluation requires, as a prerequisite skill, the ability to look at two hands and accurately figure out what contracts they can make (opposite not too bad breaks and with an average lie of the cards).

Many of us think this is trivial, but this is not an easy skill. The majority of bridge players will never learn this skill. (Many of us don't play many club games, especially not those reserved for beginners, and don't see just how hard the game is for beginners. Nor do most of us actually track how many beginners quit before graduating from the beginners game.)

You want your lessons to filter out those who won't be good at bridge and just teach the ones who have the aptitude to eventually become a good player? Then, sure, teach hand evaluation first. And watch as you soon no longer have enough tables for a game unless you live in a big city.

[akwoo]

 jillybean, on 2024-November-26, 06:23, said:

This pair will have very few agreements. MP

Next questons:

I think most pairs will play 3D as forcing in this situation. Assuming they do, would they recognize that 3D followed by 3N invites slam (since you would've just bid 3N immediately if you had no interest in being anywhere else)?

Many beginners will prefer scoring 430/460/490 all of the time to scoring 990 70% of the time and -50/-100 the other 30%. That's because they'd rather not have to deal with the stress of playing a hard contract or going down in a doomed one (that they don't recognize as doomed from the outset). They also tend to feel really bad about going down. Sure such attitudes are not good for the MP (or IMP) scores, but having fun is more important. Are your beginners such beginners?

[mike777]

MP playing 3NT rather than investigating slam bidding seems just fine at almost any teaching level.
Next up teaching declarer play and defense or hand evaluation..


Minor suit Slam bidding at MP seems to be a low priority,very low.

[jillybean]

 akwoo, on 2024-November-26, 16:47, said:

Next questons:

I think most pairs will play 3D as forcing in this situation. Assuming they do, would they recognize that 3D followed by 3N invites slam (since you would've just bid 3N immediately if you had no interest in being anywhere else)?

Many beginners will prefer scoring 430/460/490 all of the time to scoring 990 70% of the time and -50/-100 the other 30%. That's because they'd rather not have to deal with the stress of playing a hard contract or going down in a doomed one (that they don't recognize as doomed from the outset). They also tend to feel really bad about going down. Sure such attitudes are not good for the MP (or IMP) scores, but having fun is more important. Are your beginners such beginners?

These players have been playing for a while, definitely a step up from kitchen bridge but with very few conventions, poorly utilized stayman, transfers and of course, Gerber.
I've stressed that going down is ok, forget it and move onto the next hand. Review it after the game. I've also shared how my game initially suffers when I change my system.
It will get worse before it gets better.
The only questions they had to start with was ,how do we bid slams? Ace asking. 1H 2H 4nt. I said at the time, when you start recording 480's/680's we will look at it.
Some are getting those scores and have bid and made a couple of slams. This hand of course came up as a problem for this week. I think I need to talk about the pure strength of the hand opposite 18-19 but I always like to hear how my more experienced bbf buddies would approach the hand.

We continue to discuss forcing bids. I cover NMF for those who are always going to be club players, with various partners and encourage the few serious partnerships to look at XYZ. We always discuss defense, signaling, planning of the play, counting etc from one or two hands from the previous week. MP and overtricks are very tough on newer players but this group are quite resilient now and often placing.

[mike777]

Who would not love to play with someone at the local club who is:
Good declarer
Good defender
Good at hand evaluation
Good at bidding games and part scores
Good at competitive bidding
But no knows nothing about slam bidding...so stops in game
Sign me up
Smile ☺️

[jillybean]

I'm guilty of always thinking of slam possibilities.

[akwoo]

I was thinking I had a way of figuring out whether partner has a spade control, but after running through the possibilities, I don't, or at least not clearly.

So 3♦ (or 3♣ if we're playing that as a transfer to diamonds) followed by 5N (pick a slam) it is.