[mikeh]

 nullve, on 2024-November-18, 14:22, said:

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https://bridgewinner...suit-or-double/

and your point is?

[jillybean]

 mikeh, on 2024-November-18, 11:57, said:

For me, the key for whether to make a very strong overcall….I’ve overcalled on 19-20 hcp….is whether I can handle partner getting very enthusiastic with a weak hand and a long other major. Thus after a 1H opening on my right, it would be exceptionally rare for me to double with only one or two spades….if I can’t handle partner jumping to or bidding 4S over a 4H raise, I won’t double…I’ll overcall.

Good stuff

Doubling and bidding a suit with 14,16,18+ is a habit players who have not updated their system for 20+ years have. It's still seen in club games.

...

[nullve]

 mikeh, on 2024-November-18, 20:01, said:

and your point is?

To put your 'completely unplayable in a serious game' into perspective.

[EDIT:

It just occured to me that 'completely unplayable in a serious game' likely didn't refer to doubling with the OP hand but to the agreement that the double promises four spades, in which case I completely agree with you. Sorry!]

Quote

Many hesitate to overcall at the two-level with only a five-card suit due to the risk of being penalized. We have four hearts, but a takeout double with only two diamonds may lead to a poor result. What should we do?

I would double, says Mikael [Rimstedt]. If I overcall 2♣, the hearts will disappear if partner is bidding anything that’s inviting to game. If partner bids 2NT, I can’t continue bidding with my weak hand, and if partner bids 2♠, I’ll have to go back to 3♣. Double would at least show more flexibility.

Cecilia [Rimstedt] agrees. No bid is perfect. We can easily find a 4-4 fit in hearts after a double, but overcalling with 2♣ may be better if we make 3NT. We don’t know yet what the opponents and partner will do, but my vote is for 2♣, which I believe can work better in a competitive auction.

Should we pass and hope to come in later with a balancing bid? I think not. If we start with a pass, we may not be able to show a good hand. LHO can bid on dubious values; if we come in later, our balancing bids don’t promise this strength. It seems like the experts agree about bidding: In a poll with all vulnerable at IMPs, about 50% bid 2♣, while 30% doubled.

But it's of course possible to view doubling 1♠ with ♠9x ♥AJ54 ♦J4 ♣AQJ65 as rather different from doubling 1♥ with ♠AT75 ♥62 ♦K6 ♣AQT92. For example, it's not so easy to locate a 4-4 heart fit after

(1♠)-2♣-(P)-2♠

as a 4-4 spade fit after

(1♥)-2♣-(P)-2♥

.

[nullve]

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This was board 16 here and both Bessis (French) and Gandoglia (Italian) chose to double with this hand.

[mw64ahw]

 nullve, on 2024-November-19, 06:07, said:

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This was board 16 here and both Bessis (French) and Gandoglia (Italian) chose to double with this hand.

One of those misfits where you don't want to be declaring. Don't particularly like the 5♥ lead

[Ranmit]

 nullve, on 2024-November-19, 06:07, said:

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This was board 16 here and both Bessis (French) and Gandoglia (Italian) chose to double with this hand.

What would the response be if partner chose to bid 2D after the double? Pass?

[Ranmit]

 mikeh, on 2024-November-18, 09:56, said:

RHO opens 1H and you hold AQx xx AJxx Kxxx. Do you want to pass? That’s not the way to play winning bridge, yet anyone foolish enough to play that a double shows 4S has to pass or bid a 4 card minor, lol. I strongly suspect that almost everyone who claims that a double shows 4S would double with this hand, proving their hypocrisy. It’s akin to a discussion I had some 30 years ago with an intermediate pair. They insisted that a weak 2H or 2S opening denied a side ace. I asked what they do, white v red at mps or imps with QJ109xx xx Axx xx. They both said 2S.

Also, if x shows 4S, what do you bid after (1H) with AJxx Jxxx x AKxx. Say you double, since you’ve agreed that double shows 4 spades and opening values and says nothing about your shape. It goes 2H on your left (or 1S) and partner bids some number of diamonds. Disaster lurks.

But it’s no answer to say that partner can’t bid diamonds unless he can play opposite a stiff. You’d also double with AJxx xx Kxx AJxx and now you want partner to compete with long diamonds.

Beware of facile ‘agreements’ such as ‘double shows 4S’. It doesn’t…and if you think it does….you’re lying to yourself. Or would you pass with my AQx xx AJxx Kxx hand?

This makes a lot of sense - thanks! But (maybe I missed it) - what would you do on the original hand: If you bid 2c, what would you bid as South, particularly if you had an additional H and 1 less club: since 2H would imply club support? Or is 2H by S here any strong hand? Basically how would you find a 4-4 spade fit?

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[mikeh]

 Ranmit, on 2024-November-19, 17:28, said:

This makes a lot of sense - thanks! But (maybe I missed it) - what would you do on the original hand: If you bid 2c, what would you bid as South, particularly if you had an additional H and 1 less club: since 2H would imply club support? Or is 2H by S here any strong hand? Basically how would you find a 4-4 spade fit?

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2H doesn’t, logically, promise club support. It very often will have club support if only because LHO opened, partner bid 2/1 overcall and 2H is a one round force. There are only so many hcp floating around. Most of the time south will have some weaker hand or a clear bid…say you moved a spade into diamonds or vice versa…now 2D or 2S, as the case may be, should, imo,be played as a one round force. On still other good hands, south may have heart values and be able to bid some number of notrump. So the hands where one cues 2H without some club fit will be very rare. Note that more often than not a 2 level overcall will be on a 6 card suit, so any doubleton scoften enough. Here, I agree with 2C but there are some good players who prefer double…praying to survive should partner bids diamonds. I’d double with 3=2=3=5, but I’m too chicken to enjoy partner’s expression when I lay down xx in 2 or 3 diamonds.

As it happens, south has very good club support, so 2H is fine even if north (mistakenly imo) thinks it’s always a strong club raise. In any event, no matter what north thinks it means, 2S is obvious. If put to an expert panel, I’d expect the sequence 2C 2H 2S to occur 100% of the time.

[blackshoe]

Ranmit, on 2024-November-17, 16:10, said:

2/1 system, MPs (if relevant).

How do you find 4-4 spade fits in a competitive auction over a 1H opening by opponents - particularly when you have shortage in a side suit that does not allow you to make a dbl? For ex, W opens 1♥:

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N could bid 2♣. Would 2♠ by S here show 4+spades or 5+?
Moreover, if E interjects with a weak bid, say: 1♥ 2♣ 3♥, do you play dbl by S as take-out or penalty?

I would bid 2♥ with that hand. Not Michaels, a Top and Bottom Cue Bid. See Max Hardy's Competitive Bidding With Two Suited Hands or Advanced Bridge Bidding For the Twenty First Century. The latter has a useful modification to the methods described in the former, regarding hands with hearts and clubs over a 1♦ opening.