[Ranmit]

2/1 system, MPs (if relevant).

How do you find 4-4 spade fits in a competitive auction over a 1H opening by opponents - particularly when you have shortage in a side suit that does not allow you to make a dbl? For ex, W opens 1♥:

---

N could bid 2♣. Would 2♠ by S here show 4+spades or 5+?
Moreover, if E interjects with a weak bid, say: 1♥ 2♣ 3♥, do you play dbl by S as take-out or penalty?

[pescetom]

I may miss the point, but I think the only difficult question is what partner would do if I perversely decide to torment him with 2♣.
For me at least this is an automatic double, promising 4 card spades or a hand too strong to bid naturally.

[smerriman]

Double wouldn't cross my mind. If East stays quiet after 2♣, then South can show good club support with 2♥, after which North can bid 2♠ naturally. If East raises hearts, then double works nicely (definitely not penalty).

[thepossum]

Ranmit, on 2024-November-17, 16:10, said:

2/1 system, MPs (if relevant).

How do you find 4-4 spade fits in a competitive auction over a 1H opening by opponents - particularly when you have shortage in a side suit that does not allow you to make a dbl? For ex, W opens 1♥:

---

N could bid 2♣. Would 2♠ by S here show 4+spades or 5+?
Moreover, if E interjects with a weak bid, say: 1♥ 2♣ 3♥, do you play dbl by S as take-out or penalty?

I would consider a double, and hope partner sees a spade fit or I will correct to spades if they bid diamonds - note that it keeps the bidding lowest too
I usually assume double of a major means likely 4 card other major, and even with only 3 you will get a 7 card fit
YOu may miss a nice club fit but I thought our systems targetted majors and NT
You never know if we don't fiind spades we may end up in a not too bad club contract

[pescetom]

smerriman, on 2024-November-17, 16:32, said:

Double wouldn't cross my mind. If East stays quiet after 2♣, then South can show good club support with 2♥, after which North can bid 2♠ naturally. If East raises hearts, then double works nicely (definitely not penalty).

Works out equally this time.
If the third club was a heart ?

Double showing 4oM is pretty much standard in France and Italy, not sure about RoW.

[Ranmit]

thepossum, on 2024-November-17, 16:32, said:

I would consider a double, and hope partner sees a spade fit or I will correct to spades if they bid diamonds - note that it keeps the bidding lowest too

We play double as takeout - so if partner bids diamonds, I cannot correct to another suit unless I have 18+ pts (power dbl). It could be with even a 3 card spade.

Is this generally a bad agreement? We could change it to showing 4-other-major if that is considered better. Pros and cons?

[Ranmit]

smerriman, on 2024-November-17, 16:32, said:

Double wouldn't cross my mind. If East stays quiet after 2♣, then South can show good club support with 2♥, after which North can bid 2♠ naturally.

Yes, what if the third club was a heart and you couldn't show good club support with 2♥?

[jdiana]

I never really got comfortable with off-shape takeout doubles, but you might be interested in this article by Josh Dunn. https://bridgewinner...akeout-doubles/

Your hand is exactly like one of the hands he describes under "Doubleton in a Minor", except with hearts and spades reversed: "If it’s the in-between holding of ♠xx ♥Axxx ♦Kx ♣AQxxx then I feel strongly that double is best."

[mike777]

Fwiw I was taught this is a tough shape..
So old fashion Astro Cuebids help.
1H-2H= 4Spades And longer clubs
Plus good hand.

[mike777]

-

[helene_t]

A 2sp response by south would promise 5 but they can start by cuebidding 2ha and then north will bid spades.

Alternatively, north could pass or double or maybe even bid 1sp or 2ha. 2cl is by no means obvious. I personally prefer 2cl (or even better: agree that a 1nt overcall shows 4 spades and 5+ of a minor) but some people like the 2cl bid to be more disciplined.

As others have said, after easts 3h, south doybles. I don’t think it promises four spades but anyway, north will of course bid 3sp.

[mikeh]

 pescetom, on 2024-November-17, 16:44, said:

Works out equally this time.
If the third club was a heart ?

Double showing 4oM is pretty much standard in France and Italy, not sure about RoW.

Definitely not normal…in fact would be considered bizarre in NA. Also, while I’ve not paid a huge amount of attention, I’d be very surprised if any of the top players in Italy or France played this. It’s completely unplayable in a serious game, absent some extra-legal adjuncts such as the Blue Team used to play….they were the only top team in history to make weird takeout doubles and survive….not, I stress, because of the merits of the double but because partner always seemed to know when it was offshape.

[mw64ahw]

Playing The Overcall Structure solves many of these types of issues. In this case 2♠ shows 4♠5♣. It also permits bidding a 4-card suit with sufficient HCP.

[mikeh]

 Ranmit, on 2024-November-17, 17:23, said:

We play double as takeout - so if partner bids diamonds, I cannot correct to another suit unless I have 18+ pts (power dbl). It could be with even a 3 card spade.

Is this generally a bad agreement? We could change it to showing 4-other-major if that is considered better. Pros and cons?

RHO opens 1H and you hold AQx xx AJxx Kxxx. Do you want to pass? That’s not the way to play winning bridge, yet anyone foolish enough to play that a double shows 4S has to pass or bid a 4 card minor, lol. I strongly suspect that almost everyone who claims that a double shows 4S would double with this hand, proving their hypocrisy. It’s akin to a discussion I had some 30 years ago with an intermediate pair. They insisted that a weak 2H or 2S opening denied a side ace. I asked what they do, white v red at mps or imps with QJ109xx xx Axx xx. They both said 2S.

Also, if x shows 4S, what do you bid after (1H) with AJxx Jxxx x AKxx. Say you double, since you’ve agreed that double shows 4 spades and opening values and says nothing about your shape. It goes 2H on your left (or 1S) and partner bids some number of diamonds. Disaster lurks.

But it’s no answer to say that partner can’t bid diamonds unless he can play opposite a stiff. You’d also double with AJxx xx Kxx AJxx and now you want partner to compete with long diamonds.

Beware of facile ‘agreements’ such as ‘double shows 4S’. It doesn’t…and if you think it does….you’re lying to yourself. Or would you pass with my AQx xx AJxx Kxx hand?

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

there is a reason, why some peoble play Polish 1NT overcalls, or Raptor.
https://bridgewinner...-1nt-explained/

As always this comes with baggage, e.g. you loose the natural 1NT overcall.
In other words adding this will lead to add. changes.

Another option, does not always work, but with less baggage is ELC.

[Cyberyeti]

 mikeh, on 2024-November-18, 09:56, said:

RHO opens 1H and you hold AQx xx AJxx Kxxx. Do you want to pass? That’s not the way to play winning bridge, yet anyone foolish enough to play that a double shows 4S has to pass or bid a 4 card minor, lol. I strongly suspect that almost everyone who claims that a double shows 4S would double with this hand, proving their hypocrisy. It’s akin to a discussion I had some 30 years ago with an intermediate pair. They insisted that a weak 2H or 2S opening denied a side ace. I asked what they do, white v red at mps or imps with QJ109xx xx Axx xx. They both said 2S.

Also, if x shows 4S, what do you bid after (1H) with AJxx Jxxx x AKxx. Say you double, since you’ve agreed that double shows 4 spades and opening values and says nothing about your shape. It goes 2H on your left (or 1S) and partner bids some number of diamonds. Disaster lurks.

But it’s no answer to say that partner can’t bid diamonds unless he can play opposite a stiff. You’d also double with AJxx xx Kxx AJxx and now you want partner to compete with long diamonds.

Beware of facile ‘agreements’ such as ‘double shows 4S’. It doesn’t…and if you think it does….you’re lying to yourself. Or would you pass with my AQx xx AJxx Kxx hand?

Mike as usual makes a lot of sense.

What an overcall looks like also makes a difference. Mike's 4414 example over 1♥, we would overcall 1♠ (or 1N if it was a bit better), but that's because there are a lot of hands with 5 spades and indifferent values that we wouldn't overcall but most people would.

[jillybean]

I was taught the same as Ranmit, I had to have support for all unbid suits, I promise 4 spades. More rules to unlearn.
It did severely limit my ability to bid in a competitive auction.

I then moved to X suggests 4 spades, partner is not going to be surprised if he plays 1S opposite 3 cards in my hand, but I often have 4.

Elderly players like me are used to doubling then bidding their suit with a "strong" 14+ hand. Now simple overcalls range from 6 to almost unlimited, more will be revealed as the auction continue.

[mikeh]

 jillybean, on 2024-November-18, 10:44, said:

I was taught the same as Ranmit, I had to have support for all unbid suits, I promise 4 spades. More rules to unlearn.
It did severely limit my ability to bid in a competitive auction.

I then moved to X suggests 4 spades, partner is not going to be surprised if he plays 1S opposite 3 cards in my hand, but I often have 4.

Elderly players like me are used to doubling then bidding their suit with a "strong" 14+ hand. Now simple overcalls range from 6 to almost unlimited, more will be revealed as the auction continue.

For me, the key for whether to make a very strong overcall….I’ve overcalled on 19-20 hcp….is whether I can handle partner getting very enthusiastic with a weak hand and a long other major. Thus after a 1H opening on my right, it would be exceptionally rare for me to double with only one or two spades….if I can’t handle partner jumping to or bidding 4S over a 4H raise, I won’t double…I’ll overcall.

In the old….really old….days, it was very unsafe to make a simple overcall on a big hand….the auction stood a really good chance of going p p p. But negative doubles have significantly changed that…the risk is still there but it’s far lower than it used to be. Why? Because we’re taught (correctly, imo, although I’ve often seen non experts overlook some of the nuances involved) to reopen after 1x (1 or 2y) p p…because responder may have a penalty double hand. 60 years ago, he’d double but these days he has to pass and hope you reopen.

Thus wide range overcalls are safer than they used to be.

As for when I do double and bid a suit…I think playing this as 14+ is very poor. Imo, it is critically important to make an overcall, rather than double and bid, unless you have a really big hand.

Say I hold AQ109x x AQxx KJx. RHO opens 1H. If I double (because I have 16 points!!!!) and it goes 3H on my right back to me, what do I do? Sure, partner probably doesn’t have much since he didn’t responsive double or bid 3S, but this could still be our hand. Give him Jxxx xxx Kxx Qxx. He doesn’t have a 3S bid nor a double…close but just a bit too weak. But if we reopen with 3S he’ll have x Jxx Kxxxx xxxx.and if we reopen with a double, he’ll bid a 4 card minor before Jxx in spades, especially as he’ll have some heart length so fears your 4 card spade suit getting tapped.

No, the answer is to overcall 1S…this encourages partner when he fits spades….which we want….and discourages him, initially, when he doesn’t. Then, if it goes (1H) 1S (3H) p p to us, we double. Showing 5 or 6 spades, at least a very good 13-14 hcp…likely 15+ unless a stiff heart….and support for the minors.

AKJxxx Axx x Axx. This looks like a minimum double then spades hand.

[nullve]

 mikeh, on 2024-November-18, 00:29, said:

Definitely not normal…in fact would be considered bizarre in NA. Also, while I’ve not paid a huge amount of attention, I’d be very surprised if any of the top players in Italy or France played this. It’s completely unplayable in a serious game, absent some extra-legal adjuncts such as the Blue Team used to play….they were the only top team in history to make weird takeout doubles and survive….not, I stress, because of the merits of the double but because partner always seemed to know when it was offshape.

---

https://bridgewinner...suit-or-double/

[thepossum]

 Ranmit, on 2024-November-17, 17:23, said:

We play double as takeout - so if partner bids diamonds, I cannot correct to another suit unless I have 18+ pts (power dbl). It could be with even a 3 card spade.

Is this generally a bad agreement? We could change it to showing 4-other-major if that is considered better. Pros and cons?

I'm not an expert. My takeouts usually mean a 4 card major and hopefully other suits

I don't like restricting my bids too much.. sometimes you need to correct and negotiate

I just say what I would do, not advice for others