[Shugart23]

Partner opens 2D showing 11-15 HCP and 3 suited and I alert. Do i need to explain that if clubs is his shortness, he is at a maximum HCP ? When I respond 2H, which is to play unless I hit his shortness_. does he need to alert my 2H bid, saying it's 'to play' ?

Partner opens 1D - alert- could be short....But he also may have a 5 card Major since we don't bid 1H or 1S when we are 5M332, but he could have long diamonds or he could be 5-4 in the minors, or he could be a balanced hand. Is 'could be short' enough unless asked for more?

Partner opens 1M...so I know he is either 2-suited or has extra length and is not 5332. is 1M alertable ?

I am not trying to hide information from my opponents, but how far do I need to go with all our explanations. As it is, many opponents dislike the number of alerts we may be giving on any particular hand.

I'd like to just give the minimum legal response and be more than willing to explain further iff (if and only if) asked

[jillybean]

In person? If so, which governing body?

[blackshoe]

That opponents dislike your alerts is their problem, not yours. If they complain, either ignore it or call the director.

As for what and how to alert, we need to know jurisdiction and whether f2f or online.

[jillybean]

Are you calling the Director so that you can comply with opponents request and cover your butt should the opps later complain that you didn't alert?
There was a thread on here a while ago,"Asking opponents not to Alert", but I can't find it.

[Shugart23]

 jillybean, on 2024-October-28, 07:05, said:

In person? If so, which governing body?

I am primarily interested in in-person ACBL, but to some extent, on line BBO where we self-alert

[Shugart23]

 jillybean, on 2024-October-28, 10:10, said:

Are you calling the Director so that you can comply with opponents request and cover your butt should the opps later complain that you didn't alert?
There was a thread on here a while ago,"Asking opponents not to Alert", but I can't find it.

No, I am not calling the director, and neither are the opponents. I know the opponents can't ask me to 'not alert' and if they do, I tell them I must alert per the ACBL rules. But this year, we are not opening 5M332 hands as 1M. We are putting this hand in either the 1D or the 1NT bid ( we play precision), so there are implications that my partner and I know about

[jillybean]

Oh, you'll have to read the ACBL Alert regs - someone will give you the answer, but not me.
https://web2.acbl.or...edures-2024.pdf

Face to face, it would be best to have 2 copies of a system card detailing these methods to give to each opponent.
The ACBL system card has no room for these types of agreement but if you look at other countries system cards you will find more useful examples.

I would simply continue to alert online.

[pescetom]

 jillybean, on 2024-October-28, 10:21, said:

Oh, you'll have to read the ACBL Alert regs - someone will give you the answer, but not me.
https://web2.acbl.or...edures-2024.pdf

Face to face, it would be best to have 2 copies of a system card detailing these methods to give to each opponent.
The ACBL system card has no room for these types of agreement but if you look at other countries system cards you will find more useful examples.

I would simply continue to alert online.

I quote this, as far as ACBL and online is concerned.
ACBL is a world of its own, their regulations are at least getting better but you had better wait for mycroft to interpret them.
Online you have no issue, you can clearly explain (to opps only) the agreement about the call and any unusual inferences.

In my RA, your system card could clearly describe all of this, except perhaps making obvious the inferences from a 1M opening.
I would expect you to alert all of these calls and be happy if when asked for an explanation you first tap the appropriate point on the card (nige1 dixit), which is more precise and less self-serving than verbal explanations tend to be.
I wouldn't be happy with you playing such unusual agreements without a card, even if your explanations are impeccable.

[jillybean]

 Shugart23, on 2024-October-28, 10:18, said:

No, I am not calling the director, and neither are the opponents. I know the opponents can't ask me to 'not alert' and if they do, I tell them I must alert per the ACBL rules. But this year, we are not opening 5M332 hands as 1M. We are putting this hand in either the 1D or the 1NT bid ( we play precision), so there are implications that my partner and I know about

My question was actually directed at Blackshoe and his comment "That opponents dislike your alerts is their problem, not yours. If they complain, either ignore it or call the director."
I think calling the Director is probably a good idea, the opponents are beginning to interfere with my enjoyment of the game.
Calling the Director is a GOOD thing that players should do more often

[johnu]

 Shugart23, on 2024-October-28, 06:59, said:

Partner opens 2D showing 11-15 HCP and 3 suited and I alert. Do i need to explain that if clubs is his shortness, he is at a maximum HCP ?

Alert! 11-15 HCP, 3 suited, if short in clubs, then a maximum with ___ HCP (insert how many HCP)

 Shugart23, on 2024-October-28, 06:59, said:

When I respond 2H, which is to play unless I hit his shortness_. does he need to alert my 2H bid, saying it's 'to play' ?

Alert! Pass or correct if short hearts (same procedure for other pass/correct responses)

 Shugart23, on 2024-October-28, 06:59, said:

Partner opens 1D - alert- could be short....But he also may have a 5 card Major since we don't bid 1H or 1S when we are 5M332, but he could have long diamonds or he could be 5-4 in the minors, or he could be a balanced hand. Is 'could be short' enough unless asked for more?

A purely short diamond is announced, not alerted (ACBL). Including a 5 card major 5-3-3-2 is IMO sufficiently unexpected that I would alert 1♦ as that's encroaching on canape territory.

Alert! Could be short, could have a 5 card major and 5332 distribution.

 Shugart23, on 2024-October-28, 06:59, said:

Partner opens 1M...so I know he is either 2-suited or has extra length and is not 5332. is 1M alertable ?

I would pre-alert to avoid any potential problems. Are you also playing a strong club system? Pre-alert both at the same time.

Pre-Alert! 1M is shows either an unbalanced hand or 6+ cards in the major.

 Shugart23, on 2024-October-28, 06:59, said:

I am not trying to hide information from my opponents, but how far do I need to go with all our explanations. As it is, many opponents dislike the number of alerts we may be giving on any particular hand.

I'd like to just give the minimum legal response and be more than willing to explain further iff (if and only if) asked

Honestly, it just takes a couple of seconds to give a descriptive alert. You aren't saving time by making incomplete explanations that require the opponents to ask followup questions.

[akwoo]

Assuming that you treat 5M332 as a balanced hand when you open 1D with it, meaning you will be rebidding NT unless partner hits your suit, I would not alert either the 1D (beyond the "could be short as 2" announcement) or 1M bids. I would however, tell opponents as part of your pre-alerts (which are now required). That should be enough to get them to ask again if they don't remember the details.

I would give all the details on the 2D opening when initially asked (and specifically emphasize any suit could be the short suit), and I would alert 2H though I suspect that isn't strictly required.

When opponents dislike the number of alerts you're giving, they're not disliking the alerting, but rather disliking that they have to play against an unfamiliar and complicated (to them, not necessarily objectively) system. At sufficiently social clubs, you might want to consider whether playing your system is bad for that club. Getting to play your system - and driving away all but 2 tables - is a pyrrhic victory.

[barmar]

 Shugart23, on 2024-October-28, 06:59, said:

I'd like to just give the minimum legal response and be more than willing to explain further iff (if and only if) asked

In the introduction to the ACBL Alert Procedure, it says:

Quote

Upon the request of an opponent, a player must fully explain the meaning of any of their partner’s calls including any inferences from related auctions and from partnership experience.

No additional detail is given about what "the minimum legal response" is. What it means to "fully explain" is a judgement call. But to avoid problems, you should err on the side of too much detail, not try keep it as terse as possible.

The rest of the document is about what's alertable, not how you explain (although in the case of announceable calls, the words to use in the announcements are specified).

[mycroft]

As far as explanations go, the Alert Procedures say:

Quote

Upon the request of an opponent, a player must fully explain the meaning of any of their partner’s calls including any inferences from related auctions and from partnership experience.

This parallels the language used in Law 20F1.

As far as Alerts go, the Alert Procedures say (my emphasis):

Quote

If you are not sure whether to Alert a call, err on the side of Alerting it. You should Alert a call that requires (or may require) an Alert even if you do not remember its meaning. However, do not Alert any call that this document says not to Alert.

The default rule for Natural bids and Passes is that they should not be alerted, with exceptions [in the document]. The default rule for Artificial bids, Doubles, and Redoubles is that they should be alerted, with exceptions [here].

With that information:

First, remember you must Pre-Alert your system as you have two calls at the 1 level that are not Natural (and one that is Forcing). I know we go with "we play Precision", but the correct thing to do is explain the non-Natural bids. The fact that you treat 5M332 always as balanced (and could be in the 1♦ call) could go into that Pre-Alert.

 Shugart23, on 2024-October-28, 06:59, said:

1. Partner opens 2D showing 11-15 HCP and 3 suited and I alert. Do i need to explain that if clubs is his shortness, he is at a maximum HCP?

Technically, yes, you must. It's information you have that the opponents should know, and certainly not something players (even players who play mini-roman) would expect.

"11-15, 4441 or 5m440, shortness in any suit. We may pass (or put in 1♦?) minimum hands with shortness in clubs."

Having said that, you might choose to not put that in unless it comes up; if you're declaring, you have time to pass "information the opponents shouldn't need in the auction, but need on defence." Normally that caveat applies to "the call is not Alertable, but you still want to know how we play it", but I don't think it would cause too much harm, at least with pairs who are subject to MEGO.

Quote

1.1 When I respond 2H, which is to play unless I hit his shortness_. does he need to alert my 2H bid, saying it's 'to play'?

First, yes, at least arguably. Natural, L, says: "After the opening bid any bid is Natural if it suggests playing the final contract in that denomination." But the feel is that "pass or correct" calls don't count as "suggest playing here", as they're "suggest playing here if this is [one of] your suit[s]." Especially as "if you surprise me and it's not, I'm going to get a lot more interested" is definitely a thing.

Second, it's not "to play", and if you explain it that way, you are *clearly* misinforming the opponents. "To play unless that's my shortness" is just fine.

To understand this, I'll use the double of Woolsey/1NT, showing "a 4-card Major and a longer minor". 2♥ in response is "to play"; if partner wanted to know my major, she would bid 2♦. She has her own suit, and she knows I have spades, and she still wants to play 2♥. See the difference?

Quote

2. Partner opens 1D - alert- could be short....But he also may have a 5 card Major since we don't bid 1H or 1S when we are 5M332, but he could have long diamonds or he could be 5-4 in the minors, or he could be a balanced hand. Is 'could be short' enough unless asked for more?

The Announcement - not an Alert - is now "could be 2". It was for many years before 2017, too - not legally, but nobody complained and it saved a lot of questions. Do Not Alert - that will get you into all of the problems you're worried about, plus the ones from the people who know the Announcement procedure and will *definitely* want to know about your *Alerted* 1♦ opener (playing a Strong Diamond? a Jacobs-style Forcing, but natural? or do you just not know how to Announce like 50% of my opponents who play this?)

That is sufficient (and in fact, no more is allowed) for the Announcement. If they ask about it, again, full disclosure. "[range] balanced or 11-15, diamonds or both minors. Could be 5M332 if balanced".

If not in the Pre-Alert, and nobody asked, it's definitely a good idea to throw this out there after the auction (if you're declaring).

Quote

Partner opens 1M...so I know he is either 2-suited or has extra length and is not 5332. is 1M alertable?

Well, now we're in good territory. No. Clearly no. I'm not even sure it's worth mentioning later (especially if you use some of your Pre-Alert time to mention that you treat all 5332s as balanced).

Quote

I am not trying to hide information from my opponents, but how far do I need to go with all our explanations. As it is, many opponents dislike the number of alerts we may be giving on any particular hand.

Yeah, the bane of non-Natural systems. They're already upset because "you play something strange", and the barrage of Alerts (especially in the strong Club auctions, where they *really* don't care, they just want you to be done with it and tell them what they're leading against) doesn't help. But also, if they ask, they're interested. If they don't care, or don't want the answer, then they shouldn't ask[1]. As such:

Quote

I'd like to just give the minimum legal response and be more than willing to explain further iff (if and only if) asked

Unfortunately for you, "the minimum legal response" is full disclosure, as explained above. There are definitely places where you might say "it shows [this]. There is more information if you want it, it's rarely relevant." - because why would they ask for "further expla[nation]" if there's nothing there to prompt them that there is anything more - but none of these (okay, the "if short in clubs, we'll be max") come to that level of detail.

I note that if you combine akwoo's and jdiana's responses, you get mine. :-)

[1] Yeah, I know, the same people who gripe about "all the Alerts" are Pavlovian in their response to one. They'll even ask as Alerter's LHO, they need to know so badly. And then still be upset about it. I have no idea what to do for them except remind them, again, that they can wait until the end of the auction and get everything (and it has the added benefit of not helping the opponents remember their system!)

[Shugart23]

akwoo, on 2024-October-28, 18:10, said:

Assuming that you treat 5M332 as a balanced hand when you open 1D with it, meaning you will be rebidding NT unless partner hits your suit, I would not alert either the 1D (beyond the "could be short as 2" announcement) or 1M bids. I would however, tell opponents as part of your pre-alerts (which are now required). That should be enough to get them to ask again if they don't remember the details.

I would give all the details on the 2D opening when initially asked (and specifically emphasize any suit could be the short suit), and I would alert 2H though I suspect that isn't strictly required.

When opponents dislike the number of alerts you're giving, they're not disliking the alerting, but rather disliking that they have to play against an unfamiliar and complicated (to them, not necessarily objectively) system. At sufficiently social clubs, you might want to consider whether playing your system is bad for that club. Getting to play your system - and driving away all but 2 tables - is a pyrrhic victory.

1D-1H-1S shows balanced with 4 or 5 Spades whilst 1D-1H-1NT shows balanced with 2 or 3 Spades

[Gerardo]

Shugart23, on 2024-October-29, 06:18, said:

1D-1H-1S shows balanced with 4 or 5 Spades whilst 1D-1H-1NT shows balanced with 2 or 3 Spades

What about UNbalanced hands with 4 Spades (assuming unbalanced with 5 would open 1S)?

[Shugart23]

Gerardo, on 2024-October-29, 06:36, said:

What about UNbalanced hands with 4 Spades (assuming unbalanced with 5 would open 1S)?

2H shows precisely 4 hearts and undisclosed 5+ minor; 2S shows precisely 4 Spades and a minor. Both 11-15 HCP

[Shugart23]

mycroft, on 2024-October-28, 19:04, said:

As far as explanations go, the Alert Procedures say:
This parallels the language used in Law 20F1.

As far as Alerts go, the Alert Procedures say (my emphasis):


With that information:

First, remember you must Pre-Alert your system as you have two calls at the 1 level that are not Natural (and one that is Forcing). I know we go with "we play Precision", but the correct thing to do is explain the non-Natural bids. The fact that you treat 5M332 always as balanced (and could be in the 1♦ call) could go into that Pre-Alert.

Technically, yes, you must. It's information you have that the opponents should know, and certainly not something players (even players who play mini-roman) would expect.

"11-15, 4441 or 5m440, shortness in any suit. We may pass (or put in 1♦?) minimum hands with shortness in clubs."

Having said that, you might choose to not put that in unless it comes up; if you're declaring, you have time to pass "information the opponents shouldn't need in the auction, but need on defence." Normally that caveat applies to "the call is not Alertable, but you still want to know how we play it", but I don't think it would cause too much harm, at least with pairs who are subject to MEGO.

First, yes, at least arguably. Natural, L, says: "After the opening bid any bid is Natural if it suggests playing the final contract in that denomination." But the feel is that "pass or correct" calls don't count as "suggest playing here", as they're "suggest playing here if this is [one of] your suit[s]." Especially as "if you surprise me and it's not, I'm going to get a lot more interested" is definitely a thing.

Second, it's not "to play", and if you explain it that way, you are *clearly* misinforming the opponents. "To play unless that's my shortness" is just fine.

To understand this, I'll use the double of Woolsey/1NT, showing "a 4-card Major and a longer minor". 2♥ in response is "to play"; if partner wanted to know my major, she would bid 2♦. She has her own suit, and she knows I have spades, and she still wants to play 2♥. See the difference?

The Announcement - not an Alert - is now "could be 2". It was for many years before 2017, too - not legally, but nobody complained and it saved a lot of questions. Do Not Alert - that will get you into all of the problems you're worried about, plus the ones from the people who know the Announcement procedure and will *definitely* want to know about your *Alerted* 1♦ opener (playing a Strong Diamond? a Jacobs-style Forcing, but natural? or do you just not know how to Announce like 50% of my opponents who play this?)

That is sufficient (and in fact, no more is allowed) for the Announcement. If they ask about it, again, full disclosure. "[range] balanced or 11-15, diamonds or both minors. Could be 5M332 if balanced".

If not in the Pre-Alert, and nobody asked, it's definitely a good idea to throw this out there after the auction (if you're declaring).

Well, now we're in good territory. No. Clearly no. I'm not even sure it's worth mentioning later (especially if you use some of your Pre-Alert time to mention that you treat all 5332s as balanced).

Yeah, the bane of non-Natural systems. They're already upset because "you play something strange", and the barrage of Alerts (especially in the strong Club auctions, where they *really* don't care, they just want you to be done with it and tell them what they're leading against) doesn't help. But also, if they ask, they're interested. If they don't care, or don't want the answer, then they shouldn't ask[1]. As such:

Unfortunately for you, "the minimum legal response" is full disclosure, as explained above. There are definitely places where you might say "it shows [this]. There is more information if you want it, it's rarely relevant." - because why would they ask for "further expla[nation]" if there's nothing there to prompt them that there is anything more - but none of these (okay, the "if short in clubs, we'll be max") come to that level of detail.

I note that if you combine akwoo's and jdiana's responses, you get mine. :-)



[1] Yeah, I know, the same people who gripe about "all the Alerts" are Pavlovian in their response to one. They'll even ask as Alerter's LHO, they need to know so badly. And then still be upset about it. I have no idea what to do for them except remind them, again, that they can wait until the end of the auction and get everything (and it has the added benefit of not helping the opponents remember their system!)

Thanks.So do we have 3 pre-alerts/announcements? 1) we play precision 2) our 1D bid may have only 2 Diamonds 3) we treat 5M332 hands as balanced. Then in the course of the play if partner opens 1D, do I remind them and say 'could be short ?

[mycroft]

You have two Pre-Announcements:

• 1♣ is 16+, Artificial and Forcing.
  
• 1♦ could be as short as 2, could have a 5 card club suit, and includes 11-13 (or whatever) balanced hands with a 5 card Major.

Remove the P word from your vocabulary, except as an *answer* to questions about what you play that requires those pre-Alerts ("So, you're playing Precision?")

It's an unhelpful shortcut - the people who know how Precision works basically know what to do over it; for the ones who don't know Precision (you know, the ones complaining about all the Alerts?) it's just more meaningless noise to get annoyed (or intimidated) about.

[blackshoe]

jillybean, on 2024-October-28, 10:10, said:

Are you calling the Director so that you can comply with opponents request and cover your butt should the opps later complain that you didn't alert?
There was a thread on here a while ago,"Asking opponents not to Alert", but I can't find it.

No, if I call the director it's because there's a disagreement between players at the table about what the rules are and it's the director's job to sort it out.

[blackshoe]

jillybean, on 2024-October-28, 15:36, said:

My question was actually directed at Blackshoe and his comment "That opponents dislike your alerts is their problem, not yours. If they complain, either ignore it or call the director."
I think calling the Director is probably a good idea, the opponents are beginning to interfere with my enjoyment of the game.
Calling the Director is a GOOD thing that players should do more often

And I have said that several times, both here and on BridgeWinners. And at face to face games.