[jillybean]

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Playing standard.

[mikeh]

jillybean, on 2024-June-27, 14:13, said:

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Playing standard.

To be blunt….losers pass, winners bid. Obviously if you play weak jumpshifts, with this hand allowed, you could do that. I don’t play WJS (although I do play 1C (P) 2D as a weak jumpshift in an unspecified (edit…I wrote minor when I meant major), in the context of a very complex system….in more casual partnerships, I don’t like WJS).

Here, 1S seems completely normal. Take away a spade….Kxxxx xxx xxx xx…..and I’d understand pass in a standard method.

[jillybean]

..

 mikeh, on 2024-June-27, 15:38, said:

To be blunt….losers pass, winners bid. Obviously if you play weak jumpshifts, with this hand allowed, you could do that. I don’t play WJS (although I do play 1C (P) 2D as a weak jumpshift in an unspecified minor, in the context of a very complex system….in more casual partnerships, I don’t like WJS).

Here, 1S seems completely normal. Take away a spade….Kxxxx xxx xxx xx…..and I’d understand pass in a standard method.

We are getting a little side tracked here but do you now pass or bid xS after

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I should have chosen the hand more carefully, nice analysis Mike. The reason you bid is that you have judged this hand as worthy of bidding 1♠,
not "don't leave me in 1♣!!" which is sometimes heard from newer players, making 1♣ forcing playing standard methods.

[smerriman]

 jillybean, on 2024-June-27, 17:12, said:

We are getting a little side tracked here but do you now pass or bid 4S after

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Whichever of the numerous methods playable over 2NT rebids, there should be a route to signing off in 3♠..

[jillybean]

 smerriman, on 2024-June-27, 17:18, said:

Whichever of the numerous methods playable over 2NT rebids, there should be a route to signing off in 3♠..

This is the N/I forum.

[smerriman]

 jillybean, on 2024-June-27, 17:19, said:

This is the N/I forum.

I know; that doesn't change my answer. If you're playing a very basic system that doesn't have such a bid, that system also told you to not respond with 3 HCP.

[jillybean]

Ok, for those of us who don't have the hand evaluation skills and bidding methods to handle this hand, please don't play "1♣ forcing", just pass.

I think we may have lost sight of how much there is to learn when starting out in this game.

[bluenikki]

 smerriman, on 2024-June-27, 17:33, said:

I know; that doesn't change my answer. If you're playing a very basic system that doesn't have such a bid, that system also told you to not respond with 3 HCP.

50 years ago, the values for a response was 6 _total_ points. So a 7th spade would have made this a no-choice response. I don't know when or why that went away.

Goren's 2NT rebid would have been 19-20 so not necessarily a disaster.

[mikeh]

I understand that this is the novice/beginner forum and I apologize for my initial response which, tbh, ignored that salient fact. JB is quite right that it can be very difficult b for an expert (who has never tried to teach beginners) how complex the game can be.

The reality is that experts don’t play sophisticated methods because they like making life complicated.Paradoxically, provided one remembers the methods, complex (well designed and within a coherent system) methods actually make life much, much easier than do simple methods.



For example, and I’m not suggesting this for beginners or novices, playing transfers over the 2N rebid allows us to get out in 3S, high rates to be an ok contract…quite likely better than even 1C! Wolff signoff also works. But standard methods do not! 3S is forcing in standard, so you’re doomed to play 4S or (shudder) 2N. 4S might make, of course, but one wouldn’t be happy waiting to see dummy.

In fact, on reflection, passing 1C is indeed an option. It’s horrific…but standard methods make most foreseeable auctions pretty bad if you bid 1S. Your main hope, apart from an unlikely raise, is a 1N rebid, over which I think 2S is ‘to play’.

If I were teaching, I’d probably recommend 1S with a caution that misfitting hands often lead to poor outcomes. I’d point out that passing might well work out better….partner may have long clubs and (very) short spades…so it’s a guess. I’d also discuss what to do if partner makes life difficult for us with his rebid….while also saying that it’s really random whether passing or bidding will be bes. I’d definitely say ‘make it Kxxxx rather than Kxxxxx and passing is 100%.

[DavidKok]

I did not respond because of the forum, but in hindsight I should have. Unsurprisingly I agree with mikeh's comments above, but I'll mostly reiterate and slightly rephrase it below.

• Firstly and foremostly, this is a problem hand. Partner likely has quite a strong hand and is licking their chops for the opportunity to jump rebid, and we can see that this will likely get us too high. This is a serious (system) issue, and in the N/B forum there is no solution. You either pass, most likely playing in the wrong strain but at least at a low level, or you bid and you may get to the right strain but most likely at too high a level (if things go terribly you might be dumped at the 4-level, or, even worse, partner may insist on 3NT).
  
• Despite the above risks I would bid 1♠. There are several possible continuations where we are not in trouble, and the six card suit means we have some playing strength. In fact, 4♠ might make on a good day facing 18-19 NT, even though I think it is anti-percentage. Also on general principles I really want to play in the right strain, and I want to play in the long suit of the weak hand. Any other contract rates to be a disaster with no communication at all.
  
• Experienced players have gadgets to allow us to get to the right strain without getting too high. Mikeh has already mentioned a couple (Wolff Signoff, Transfers over the 2NT rebid, also T-Walsh) and I have my own (Dutch Doubleton, also I played 1♣-2M 'drop dead with 18-19 bal' and 1♣-2♦ 'multi, we may have game if you have 18-19 bal'). The actual gadgets don't matter much (or at all, in this forum) - I'm mostly pointing out that this is a real bidding issue and that strong players are using artificial bids to solve it. In standard there is simply a cost - the system isn't as good.

jillybean, on 2024-June-27, 17:12, said:

We are getting a little side tracked here but do you now pass or bid xS after

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I will bid some number of spades. I think in standard I am committed to 4♠, so I will bid it. It's not great.

Lastly about the title: of course 1♣ is not forcing (in fact, Dutch Doubleton gets a cheeky regulatory advantage by making 1♣ '99% forcing', which legally counts as 'not forcing'). You may wish to bid over it more often than most people are used to, but you can and should sometimes pass the bid. I understand that this is a fine distinction, and I can see how this could get misinterpreted and lead to rumours. In fact, I can even see how saying "1♣ is 100% forcing" might be an OK teaching strategy for beginners or intermediates, to get them out of the "I need 6 total points to respond" mindset. But at the end of the day the opening is not forcing.

The very first board I played in my former Weak Notrump partnership (we played 12-14), partner opened 1♣ and I judged to pass. 100% of the matchpoints, as the field started with 1NT strong and my judgement that clubs would play better was right. This doesn't happen very often, but when it does it is very memorable.

[helene_t]

I would rather teach beginners WJS than Wolf Signoffs.

Without WJS and without Wolf, we will be playing 4♠, as David says. But we might consider
1♣-1♠
2NT-3♠
3NT-pass

That said, I don't think it's a crime to pass 1♣ with this hand if we don't have a way to stop in 3♠ after a 2NT rebid. There's also the issue that partner might rebid 3♣, or reverse. If partner isn't strong, opps will balance, and we have the boss suit. Pass followed by a voluntary 2♠ bid in next round shows this hand well.

[AL78]

I've seen this situation discussed before in one of my bridge books where the author advocated responding on many hands with less than the 6 HCP normally advocated as minimum. The answer was to respond 1♠ and if partner responds 2NT, bid 4♠ and hope for the best. If you are going to live life in the fast lane you should expect the occasional crash now and then.

[pescetom]

If you play 3♣ over 2NT as a generic force, then it looks to me as if a successive 3♠ by either partner does not need to be forcing, so long as a direct 3♠ over 2NT was. Nobody seems to play this however, so maybe my reasoning is flawed.

[DavidKok]

 pescetom, on 2024-June-29, 04:04, said:

If you play 3♣ over 2NT as a generic force, then it looks to me as if a successive 3♠ by either partner does not need to be forcing, so long as a direct 3♠ over 2NT was. Nobody seems to play this however, so maybe my reasoning is flawed.

Invert it, with all weak hands going through 3♣, and you have the Wolff signoff. I think the traditional version is slightly superior to yours, but either way this is beyond the scope of this forum. Also, as always, better solutions exist if you are going to invest time in plugging this system gap.

[jillybean]

Thanks, this will be good to keep in mind for the next stage.
For this group of players I am trying to get them to open ALL 12 counts and some 11.
Open 1nt with a 5 card suits, not to be afraid to play in 1nt, or 1C
Stop playing "you must not leave me in 1C"
Think not only of the cards they hold, but what your partner has told you in the auction, trust your partner.
4NT is not a slam try
and so on

[pescetom]

 jillybean, on 2024-June-29, 11:52, said:

Stop playing "you must not leave me in 1C"

If you are TD, enquire innocently about the agreement and then threaten them with penalties for failure to alert a forcing bid.
This will disconcert all but wake up the more intelligent beginners

[jillybean]

 pescetom, on 2024-June-29, 14:50, said:

If you are TD, enquire innocently about the agreement and then threaten them with penalties for failure to alert a forcing bid.
This will disconcert all but wake up the more intelligent beginners

I could perhaps slap them with a penalty for playing an undisclosed HUM.
It may be a good time to introduce Moscito, Precision, or the Blue, Black, Canary, Carrot club systems.

[thepossum]

I'm a strange person who believes there are situations when any bid can be passed

I don't think I have yet passed 2 clubs but never say never

[AL78]

thepossum, on 2024-June-29, 22:55, said:

I'm a strange person who believes there are situations when any bid can be passed

I don't think I have yet passed 2 clubs but never say never

Any bid can be passed, whether it is a good idea is something else.

[pescetom]

AL78, on 2024-June-30, 11:50, said:

Any bid can be passed, whether it is a good idea is something else.

Or to put it another way, any agreement can be violated.
But you do so at risk of a poor result and of loss of partnership trust in any event.