[kgr]

...questions triggered by other treath concerning 2♦ overcall and overcalling with strong hand....

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Most experts would overcall in diamonds holding, say, Q109x x AKQxx AKx rather than double (or bid 1NT, but that's not my style).

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The 2♦ overcall is worse than terrible.

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There are 2 ways to play this and both are valid partnership agreements.
1) Inferfere light in second seat, raise solid in 4th seat.
2) Interfere solid in second seat, raise light in 4th seat.

Our current style is (playing a lot of MP's; and when playing MP's most in weaker field!!):
- We play rather weak overcalls.
- We play weak raises. NV we will raise to 2-level with 3-card and to 3-level with 4-card. All raises in the suit being purely preemptive.
- besides the preemtive raise we can cuebid to ask strength.
- The maximum for our overcalls is 15HCP. With more we will first DBL.
- With the quoted hand we would NEVER overcall 2♦ over 1♠ opening. We would DBL (or bid 1NT).
===============>
Questions:
- What is your range for 1-level overcalls / 2-level overcalls.
- Any simple rules to have more ways to show support after partner overcalled (eg. 2NT, fit jumps, fit none-jump (if it can be easy??),... )?

[Chamaco]

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- What is your range for 1-level overcalls / 2-level overcalls.

Requirement for 1-level overcalls.
This is an interesting issue.

Tim Bourke discusses it in its book "Tournament ACOL", where he states that the overcall cannot be as wide ranging as 6/7-16/17.

He says that, in this days where a shapely 16/17 will bid a suit, then the minimum to overcall at 1 level should be 8/9+ hcp.

The lower minimum (6/7) was justifyable in the old days when a jump overcall was strong, so that the simple overcall was more limited, say 6/7-15 hcp or so.

So that means one, holding, say KQJxx-xxx-xxxx-x, would not be able to overcall 1S, but, in this case he should either pass or jump bid a weak 2S.

[whereagles]

Overcalling is often a matter of judgement, thus one should not set rigid rules for it.

My guidelines are NV 8-17, V 10-17. Usually 5 cards at 1 lev, 6 at 2 lev.

[Al_U_Card]

So many possibilities, so little time.....just decide whether you are a cowboy, a blue-collar worker or a retiree and let your pard know for good measure. All 3 approaches have good chances to work depending on pard knowing what's up. I favor meaty overcalls at imps, and airy ones at MP but that's just me.

[Fluffy]

An overcall at the 1 level should show 10(9)+, but can be just offering a good lead with 7+.

My overcalls at the 2 level show 12+ and 6 cards. or 16+ with 5 cards.

[inquiry]

It is a matter of personal taste, but let me start by disagreeing with the blanket statement attributed to Tim Bourke... because a wide ranging overcall is not unplayable. Far from it.

I use shape specific doubles, with two suited overcalls. My two suited overcalls include MishoVnBg-based raptor, where a 1NT overcall is four+ in a major and longer minor, or five+ in the major and five plus in the minor. IF five plus in the major, the hand is at least "sound" overcall or better. I use unusual 2NT with both minors.

My 1C-1D, 1D-1H, 1H-1S overcalls tend to be sound. That is, they are generally not just noise. The reason is I have not stolen any (well enough) bidding space from the opponents. However, I will admit I am fond of overcalling 1H with 1S at matchpoints on whims at times (I have the suit, just the soundness of the overcall disappears).

On the other hand, I love to overcall 1D with 2C, and will stretch a little to do so. The advantage is it "shuts out both majors" and puts the auction in a fuzzy area. So I will stretch to make that bid.

There is less advantage in overcalling 1S or even 1H with 2C. So I tend to be have either six card suit or extra values (more than minimum) for that bid.

I pretty much ignore vul for one level overcalls, but I don't make light 2 over 1 overcalls vul.

As far as top end on overcall, I have one, but it certainly isn't 16hcp, or 18 hcp. I make light shapely takeout doubles (how light depends upon vul, MP versus imps, and friskyness level I feel at the time I look at my hand). I expect partner to go slowish opposite my takeout doubles, using the scheme basically as decribed in ETM victory.

I guess if I had to define the theory I use, it is shape first, catch up on stregnth later if it seems appropriate.

Ben

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

I am not always following the rule below, but I try.
I found the rule in one of Klingers book, altough I cant tell which.
To overcall in a suit, the suit needs to satify the "suit quality test".

The suit quality is defined as
lenght + number of honours in the suit,
counting the 10 and the jack as an hounor, if the suit contains
another higher ranking honour.
If the suit quality is equal or greater to the level, the suit is good
enough.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[Chamaco]

inquiry, on Aug 2 2005, 07:46 PM, said:

It is a matter of personal taste, but let me start by disagreeing with the blanket statement attributed to Tim Bourke... because a wide ranging overcall is not unplayable. Far from it.

Sory, I was in a hurry and wrote the post quickly.

Bourke says that the wide ranging overcall poses problems in constructive auctions, non that it is unplayable.
He therefore suggests to overcall soundly(8/9+), even at 1-level and with weaker hands resort to wjo, but these suggestions were not expressed so strongly as it seems from my previous post.

[coyot]

My favourite rule is another quality test - will it cost a trick if partner leads the King from Kx in the suit of your overcall?
If your hand contains Jxxxxx, it is hardly a good idea to enter the bidding...

I make lighter, lead-suggesting overcalls against a passed partner (starting somewhere at good 7-8 HCP), otherwise 10+ on 1st level 5card and 2nd level 6card, 12+ on 2nd level 5card.

[kgr]

After patner overcalled what bids do you use to raise partner?
eg:
(1D)-1H-(P)-
2H: weak with 3-card support
3H: weak with 4-card support
2D: strong with or without support
2NT: strong with 4-card support
jumps: support and good side suit

and after:
(1D)-1H-(2D)-
and:
(1D)-2C

If you have (not too complex) agreements about this then I would be interested. (the above is just an example of what I want).
I'm especially interested in clear agreements.
I have read RS, but e.g. fit none-jumps would probably too complex (...for my partner ). Exept if we could have a clear rule when they are fit or just another suit.

[helene_t]

I sometimes make kamikaze overcalls (vulnerable at IMPs not quite as bad as the one discussed in the other thread, but a suit as AQ9xx might do) when playing in weak field and I'm in a bad mood and I dislike the opponents. Fortunately most opponents are nice people.

In principle, I expect partner to pass my overcall with a flat 8 HCPs and no fit, at the two-level probably even with 10 with an unpassed hand. Vulnerable at IMPs the fourth hand must invite more agresively which means that I must have a decent 13 HCPs for a 2-level overcall. Otherwise it could be slightly less.

This may suggest that the upper limit for an overcall is appr 16 HCPs, but many 16-pointers and some stronger hands offer no alternative to a simple overcall, in which case I just have to hope it won't get passed out. I try to avoid dbl with less than 4 in the other major unless I'm strong enough to bid again, and even with a monster hand I try to avoid dbl with a singleton in an unbid major. I don't mind off-shape notrump overcalls or occasionally selling a 5-4 or 6-4 as a two-suiter if the 4-card is of exceptinal quality, or a preemptive jump to game with a good hand. This is a matter of agreement. If partner insists on off-shape dbls with the difficult hands, perhaps in combination with a slightly lower overcall range, it's ok with me.

The lower limit for a one-level overcall depends on many factors. 1♠ over a minor suit opening can be very light except when vulnerable at IMPs. But generally, I prefer a sound overcall style. With a weak hand and a good suit, the choice is between pass and a jump overcall.

[Chamaco]

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After patner overcalled what bids do you use to raise partner?
eg:
(1D)-1H-(P)-
  2H: weak with 3-card support
  3H: weak with 4-card support
  2D: strong with or without support
  2NT: strong with 4-card support
  jumps: support and good side suit

Add to this a jump-cuebid = mixed 4 card raise (say, 9 losers)

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and after:
(1D)-1H-(2D)-

same scheme:
- jumps = fitshowing
- 2NT = inv+ power raise
- direct raises = (weakish)
- 3C = similar to jumps = Fit NonJump
- hands interested in NT will double (since 2NT is taken)

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and:
(1D)-2C

I do not like fitshowing responses to minor suit overcalls.
Reason is, many times the right contract is NoTrumps, and the fitshowing scheme is great to shoot for a suit contract, less so for a NT contract.

For this sequence i like to play different than for major overcall e.g.:
2D = forcing, may inquire for strength (hands that would have bid a natutal 2NT invitational) or for side 4M
2M = non forcing
2NT = good xfer to 3 clubs; if pard is minimum he bids 3C
3M = preemptive
3D = GF xfer to hearts
3H = GF xfer to S
3S = GF stop ask for NT, no interest in major, will play in NT or %C

[whereagles]

Transfer advances are probably the best way to respond to an overcall (at any level of overcall). Trouble is you need a good pard to play them.

[Fluffy]

Non jump raises are always constructive.

[kgr]

Thanks! I will be able to construct something from this:
cues, jump-cues, jumps in other suits all show different forms of fit.

But I have a problem with Fit NonJump's. Do you have a clear rule to distinguish a Fit NonJump from a simple new suit and no fit?
1) (1D)-1S-(3D)-3H
2) P-(1D)-1S-(3D)-3H
3) (1D)-1S-(3D)-3C
...
Are these Fit NonJump's and how do you know it - what rule do you use to know it?
Remark: For my partner it is more important to have 'difficult' rule on paper then some 'easy' judgement rule that can not be put on paper. With something on paper he will be able to study it.

[helene_t]

In general, fit non-jumps apply when you can't have a hand for a natural non-jump because you have a passed hand. (This statement is not-so-subtle propaganda for wild preempts: a passed hand does not have a decent, long suit!).

But at the four-level, it makes sense to agree that even an unpassed hand can bid a fit-non-jump. A suit that you can safely introduce at the 4-level without a fit for partner's suit is too rare. Conversely, if your system does not feature a weak two in clubs(diamonds), 2♣(♦) is just natural, even by a passed hand.

[inquiry]

kgr, on Aug 3 2005, 07:52 AM, said:

Are these Fit NonJump's and how do you know it - what rule do you use to know it?
Remark: For my partner it is more important to have 'difficult' rule on paper then some 'easy' judgement rule that can not be put on paper.  With something on paper he will be able to study it.

Simple non-fit jump rules.

1. New suits by passed hand in competion at the three level or higher without a jump is a non-fit jump.

2. If both opponents have shown stregnth, then new suit at three level without a jump is a non-fit jump (examples... after they make a negative double at the two level or higher, or they make a forcing freebid at the two level or higher).

Some people play this as a FNJ

(1D)- 1H - (2D) - 3C <<---- FNJ. Principle being with heart support use one of the heart support bids, without heart support, double for takeout or (gasp) pass. I have played this as FNJ and as natural, non-forcing (can you really have enough hcp and clubs and no fit for partner to FORCE on t his auction and not be able to double then bid 3NT or simply bid 3NT)> I currently play Equality most often so it is a non-issue.

However,

(1S) - 2H - (3S) - 4C <<--- should clearly be FIT NON JUMP so partner will know what to do if they bid 4S over 4H's. So if you want to play this as FNJ, then you may as well play the earlier example one level lower as the same. To try to bid 4C to play without fit is wasted, and if you wait to have a hand good enough for 4C to force without a fit, you have a very long wait indeed.

Robson/Segal summarized Fit jumps and non-fit jumps this way..

• All jumps into new suits are fit-showing.
  
• All non-jump bids in lower-ranking new suits show a fit at the three level or higher, except over a pass from RHO (FNJs).

One thing for sure, you can't get any simplier rules written down on paper than that.

[FrancesHinden]

This really demands a long lecture on overcalling styles. I shall give it in two parts, the second part first because it's the easiest. That was your second question on a set of rules for knowing what advancer's bids mean.

Your methods of responding to overcalls depend on your style of overcalls. Playing in a generally sound school of overcalling, I have the following set of rules written down:

1. If 3rd hand passes

i) Simple raise is weak, but mildly constructive (usually about 5-8 HCP depending on hand type, tactical considerations, vulnerability, level). In principle exactly 3 card support.

ii) Jump raise to any level is pre-emptive. Can be a 0-count at favourable, but some values vul. Jumping directly to game even if vul does not establish a forcing pass; you have to cue first.

iii) Simple change of suit is natural and forcing, and (usually) shows a 5-card suit. Overcaller's raise, simple rebid in NT or in own suit is NF. Overcaller's rebid in a new suit is F1 (you are defined to have a fit in the original suit).

iv) Jump change of suit is a fit bid, unless it is game (to play) or opener's suit. Fit bids are forcing and show 4-card support and 9 cards in the two suits.

v) Cue bid in principle shows 3-card support and about 9+ HCP. It can be made on a doubleton on a good hand after a 2-level overcall from partner if nothing else is suitable. A game force with 3 or 4-card support also starts with a cue bid. (To splinter in a side suit cue first then jump.) If opener now doubles or bids below the next level of our suit, bidding is the weakest action and pass shows some game interest. We are forced to the level that the cue bid forced to.

vi) 3-level jump cue bid (after a 1-level overcall) is a "mixed" raise, about 6-9 HCP and 4-card support. No forcing pass.

vii) 4-level jump cue bid is a splinter. No forcing pass.

viii) NT bids are natural. No forcing pass.

Everything is the same by a passed hand, except that a simple change of suit is now non-forcing.

2. 3rd hand (responder) acts at the 1- or 2-level over the overcall

After a negative (take-out) double everything is as above, plus a redouble shows Ax or Kx in overcaller's suit and the values to compete.

Otherwise

i) A jump to 2NT is always natural
ii) Subject to (i), if it is possible to cuebid below 3 of partner's suit, then a cue shows a good raise and 2NT is lebensohl (a desire to compete in another suit). If it is not possible to cuebid below 3 of partner's suit, 2NT shows a good raise.

iii) If two cuebids below 3 of partner's suit are available, the lower shows 3-card support and the higher 4-card support.
iv) If two cuebids are available, one below 3 partner's suit and one above, the lower one shows a raise to the 3-level but not a game force, the higher is a game forcing raise.

v) A new suit at the 2-level is nat NF.

vi) If 2NT is lebensohl, a non-jump new suit at the 3-level is a fit bid and is forcing. If 2NT was a good raise, a non-jump new suit at the 3-level is natural NF.

vii) Non-game jumps are fit. Game is always to play.

viii) 3-level jump cue bid in opener's suit, if still available, is a mixed raise. Otherwise jump cue bids are splinters.

ix) Double is take-out. The shape constraints depend a bit on the auction (more information available if required..), but you never usually double with 3-card support for partner's major, and you wouldn't bother doubling for the other minor with 3-card support for partner's minor.

x) There is no systemic way of showing a strong hand with its own suit. You either have to bid game, or start with a take-out double and then bid the suit next round if possible, or bid the suit non-forcing and hope somebody bids.

3. 3rd hand bids at the 3-level or higher
i) Double is take-out

ii) Cue bid shows a good raise to the relevant level and sets up a forcing pass.

iii) A non-jump 3H/3S bid (not overcaller's suit) is natural & forcing and doesn't promise a fit but is very likely to have one. No forcing pass.

v) Other non-game jumps (if available) are fit bids; jump cues (if available) show a splinter.

4. 4NT after 3rd hand bids at the 4-level

i) If no cue bid is available, 4NT shows a good raise to 5 of partner's suit and sets up a forcing pass.
ii) If a cue bid is available, 4NT shows two places to play (either the two unbid suits, or the unbid suit with tolerance for partner's suit).

(so 1S -2H - 4S - 4NT = good 5H bid; 1C - 1H - 4S - 4NT = diamonds with some heart support)

[FrancesHinden]

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Simple non-fit jump rules.

1. New suits by passed hand in competion at the three level or higher without a jump is a non-fit jump.

2. If both opponents have shown stregnth, then new suit at three level without a jump is a non-fit jump (examples... after they make a negative double at the two level or higher, or they make a forcing freebid at the two level or higher).

I used to play these rules. Then I found that
i) they never came up (I always want to bid game when I have 4-card support and a 5-card side suit), and
ii) I kept wanting to bid without a fit

[kgr]

Thanks Ben.

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If both opponents have shown stregnth, then new suit at three level without a jump is a non-fit jump

This has to be a typo. What did you mean with non-fit jump: FNJ or not FNJ? Probably FNJ?

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All non-jump bids in lower-ranking new suits show a fit at the three level or higher, except over a pass from RHO (FNJs).

I must have missed this summary in RS.
Question: what is lower-ranking new suit? Is that compared with partner's suit or with suit bid by opps?

Examples using the 3 rules of Ben:
1) P-(1D)-1H-(2D)-3C: FNJ
2) (1H)-1S-(3C)-3D: If 3C is strong then FNJ; If 3C is preempt then not FNJ
3) (1D)-1S-(2D)-3C: FNJ
4) (1D)-1S-(3D)-3H: If 3D is strong then FNJ; If 3D is preempt then not FNJ (not sure, depends on answer to my question above)
5) (1D)-1H-(2D)-2S: not FNJ; because no FNJ's at 2-level
6) (1D)-1H-(3D-strong)-3S: FNJ because both opps showed strength OR not FNJ because bid at 3-level in higher-ranking suit (which of these 2 rules applies first??)
6) (1D)-1H-(3D-preempt)-3S: not FNJ
7) (1H)-2D-(2H)-3C: FNJ
8) (1H)-2D-(P)-3C: not FNJ (because pass of RHO)
9) (1H)-2S-(P)-3C: not FNJ ??? (2S is Weak jump)

....what do you think?
thanks again,
Koen