[gprentice]

One of my partners has a habit of sometimes kind of thinking aloud during the bidding when it's his turn to bid - or at least he is speaking stuff probably without actually giving unauthorised information. Is there any law against this or can people jabber stuff about what's happening in the bidding or how they're feeling about the bidding when it's their turn to bid as long as it's not giving unauthorised information.

[jillybean]

Not ethical and not legal - if I were your opponent I would have the Director at the table every time this happened. If your partner is sometimes muttering during the auction this must be a source of potential UI

Law16
B. Extraneous Information from Partner 1. Any extraneous information from partner that might suggest a call or play is unauthorized. This includes remarks, questions, replies to questions, unexpected alerts or failures to alert, unmistakable hesitation, unwonted speed, special emphasis, tone, gesture, movement or mannerism.

[smerriman]

16 isn't quite the right one here, since giving UI isn't illegal (unless intentional); acting upon it is. However 74A2 and 74B2 seem appropriate:

Quote

LAW 74 - CONDUCT AND ETIQUETTE
74A2. A player should carefully avoid any remark or extraneous action that might cause annoyance or embarrassment to another player or might interfere with the enjoyment of the game.
74B2. As a matter of courtesy a player should refrain from making gratuitous comments during the auction and play.

[jillybean]

Thanks. Don't we have a law that says players must avoid giving UI , sighs. rolled eyes , slamming bidding card table, muttering, slow pass? (16)
74 is referring to your opponent's enjoyment of the game, not about sending signals to your partner.

[smerriman]

16 is that partner has to bend over backwards to avoid *using* that sort of information; the reason you "shouldn't" do it comes more down to the fact that you're liable to the score being adjusted. Doing it deliberately falls under law 73B. But the OP mentioned the one being talked about were ones that probably didn't convey UI, thus fall under 74.

[thepossum]

I know I may have a strange view on information but if its available to everyone and not including secret messages is it UI?

Like funbling around and blurting out - ooh I found another spade

Mumbling I think it may be too strong for a no trump bid

[pescetom]

thepossum, on 2024-March-25, 01:17, said:

I know I may have a strange view on information but if its available to everyone and not including secret messages is it UI?

Like funbling around and blurting out - ooh I found another spade

Mumbling I think it may be too strong for a no trump bid

Of course that is UI to partner: it didn't come from the calls made. It is AI to opponents who can use it at their own risk.

"I think it may be too strong for a no trump bid" is also a clear 73B penalty for me.

[mycroft]

"one club", "a club", "I'll start with a club",...

There's a reason we use bidding boxes now, and a lot of it revolves around the information passed in spoken bidding. Of course muttering like that *about this hand* is information that is unauthorized (to partner - the opponents can do what they like with it).

OP, if you really think it isn't UI, then clearly it isn't about the hand in progress. Even "they opened 1NT, so righty has 16 +/-" - information you already know from the Announcement - it's still UI (arguments on whether AI trumps UI have gone on for decades. So this clearly is still an issue).

This is a very bad habit that should be noticed and cleaned up. You as their partner should discuss it away from the table, pointing out the ethical problems this is putting *you* into. And if it continues, *you* should occasionally call the director and explain what you heard - especially if the partner doesn't see the problem.

One thing I will note is that many partners are getting older, and their hearing isn't what it was. And it might be a surprise to your partner that others can hear their "soundless mutterings".

[pescetom]

mycroft, on 2024-March-25, 13:42, said:

One thing I will note is that many partners are getting older, and their hearing isn't what it was. And it might be a surprise to your partner that others can hear their "soundless mutterings".

It might not only be a surprise that others can hear their "soundless" muttering but even that they did mutter, let alone that they might have known it could work to their advantage... such is the immense capacity of the human brain for self-deceipt.
I agree that the first and strongest line of defence is an ethical partner.

[mikeh]

Many years ago I played a club game against (literally) two little old ladies. They had a strong auction, leading to my LHO bidding 4N…keycard for their agreed trump suit of spades.

RHO’s response was, it seemed, quite disappointing. LHO thought for a while before placing the 5N bidding card on the table…accompanied by ‘Oh dear, I don’t know how we got so high’.

RHO looked over at her partner, who was looking down at the table, shaking her head….then RHO passed!

The TD, and club owner was the inimitable Matt Smith, he of the ACBL HOF and frequent Head Director at WC events.

He politely confirmed with the two LOLs that, yes, 5N after 4N was asking for Kings. He also had them confirm that LHO had said the ‘oh dear’

He rolled the auction back to RHO’s turn after 5N. He told her (and I think I still recall it pretty accurately) ‘I can’t tell you what to bid, but you’ve told me that 5N asks for kings. You must pay no attention to (name of LHO)’s statement about being too high…make the bid you’d make if she’d said nothing’

RHO peered carefully at her hand. She paused to look at the bidding cards on the table (we’d passed throughout). She paused, brow furrowed.

Then she passed!

So talking during the bidding is not something I recommend, lol.

[pescetom]

mikeh, on 2024-March-25, 14:56, said:

Many years ago I played a club game against (literally) two little old ladies. They had a strong auction, leading to my LHO bidding 4N…keycard for their agreed trump suit of spades.

RHO’s response was, it seemed, quite disappointing. LHO thought for a while before placing the 5N bidding card on the table…accompanied by ‘Oh dear, I don’t know how we got so high’.

RHO looked over at her partner, who was looking down at the table, shaking her head….then RHO passed!

The TD, and club owner was the inimitable Matt Smith, he of the ACBL HOF and frequent Head Director at WC events.

He politely confirmed with the two LOLs that, yes, 5N after 4N was asking for Kings. He also had them confirm that LHO had said the ‘oh dear’

He rolled the auction back to RHO’s turn after 5N. He told her (and I think I still recall it pretty accurately) ‘I can’t tell you what to bid, but you’ve told me that 5N asks for kings. You must pay no attention to (name of LHO)’s statement about being too high…make the bid you’d make if she’d said nothing’

RHO peered carefully at her hand. She paused to look at the bidding cards on the table (we’d passed throughout). She paused, brow furrowed.

Then she passed!

So talking during the bidding is not something I recommend, lol.

But just in case anyone here gets the wrong idea, TD actually had no right to roll back the auction in the first place, only to correct the score and (if really heartless) penalise the pass.

[barmar]

Even in cases where there's no UI being passed, it's a bad habit that they should try to break. It's up there with fiddling with the bidding box before pulling a card.

[jillybean]

Just for clarification

74B. Etiquette
As a matter of courtesy a player should refrain from:
1. paying insufficient attention to the game.
2. making gratuitous comments during the auction and play.
3. detaching a card before it is his turn to play.
4. prolonging play unnecessarily (as in playing on although he knows that all the tricks are surely his) for the purpose of disconcerting an opponent.
5. summoning and addressing the Director in a manner discourteous to him or to other contestants.

(Guilty of #1 !)