[AL78]

MPs playing Acol, 3 weak twos, weak NT with a scratch partner but one of the better players in the club:

---

I was West and hoped to get the hand across with a strong jump shift followed by rebidding the clubs to get the suit quality across. 7NT is cold as is 7♣, even 7♦ makes on a finesse. Do you have a way to get to a grand?

[TylerE]

Not real sure I want to be in 7 single dummy. Neither black suit splitting and KD offside isn't an unlikely defensive layout. 7 suit is vulnerable to opening lead ruffs. This hand is basically "cold" on the finesse. Which means it ain't.

[smerriman]

 TylerE, on 2023-December-21, 18:42, said:

Not real sure I want to be in 7 single dummy. Neither black suit splitting and KD offside isn't an unlikely defensive layout. 7 suit is vulnerable to opening lead ruffs. This hand is basically "cold" on the finesse. Which means it ain't.

You have 13 top tricks barring a 5-0 club break, with multiple backup chances to make even then.. I think that's pretty good odds single dummy.

[jillybean]

With a singleton in our partner's opening/best suit this auction does not get off to an easy start.
1♠:2♣ *gf clubs or balanced
2♠:3♣
bidding the diamond suit now doesn't look right unless you have the agreement to bid shape.
We'd get to 6 but not 7

[shyams]

If OP is playing in a scratch partnership, I think the final call should rest with West. East could bid 5NT hoping to be understood as "bid 7NT with extras. If no extras, pls bid 6NT".

However, the more likely interpretation of a 5NT bid would be "pick a slam" (from among 6C, 6S, 6NT).

I am not sure I would reach a grand slam with any degree of confidence if I am playing with a new partner.

[DavidKok]

I don't know enough about the system, so I can't really speak to the auction. They say slam bidding starts at the 2-level and this is one of the areas where Acol tends to struggle. To be honest I have no idea what the expected strength, length or suit quality is for a strong jump shift, and whether or not partner should play you for a massive hand by your 4♣ rebid. Holding any 17-count facing a strong jump shift, one with the king of clubs, AKQ-sixth as a source of tricks and a control in an outside suit to boot, would get me quite optimistic (although there's also some noticeable weaknesses in this 17-count: short clubs, only one ace, likely wasted red suit jacks).

In a 2/1 system I am more familiar with the start to the auction, though generally I struggle to remain objective now that I've seen both hands.

As always I dislike jumps on a strong auction. I understand that the 3♣ is systemic, but I reckon the 6NT bid is not.

[Cyberyeti]

Our auction would not be typical.

1♠-2♣(not GF)
2N (GF opposite a 10 count)-3♣ (cheapest sensible rebid, at least 5 clubs)
3♠ (don't bid bad suits on good hands, with better diamonds would bid 3♦) - 4♣
4♥-4N (heart cue)
5♣(can't cue diamonds)-5♦ (I can but no additional cues to make)

W now has to place the contract, 7♣ is far from cold if they lead a spade as you don't have a late entry to dummy to cash the spades due to not having a low heart, 7N is excellent, but W might visualise x, Ax, Axxx, AQJ109x or similar in which case a spade ruff to establish the spades and heart reentry to cash them makes 7♣ virtually cold, but you need spades 3-3 to make 7N.

[Gilithin]

 DavidKok, on 2023-December-22, 03:13, said:

I don't know enough about the system, so I can't really speak to the auction.

A typical start to a Modern Acol auction might be 1♠ - 2♣ -- 2♦ - 2♥ -- 2♠ - 3♦.

[pescetom]

Our auction would probably be a bit awkward, with opener prepared to bid the diamonds rather than rebid his suit but responder not, and responder in the dark about opener's strength:

----- 1♠
2♣(FG) - 2♦
3♣ - 3♠
4♦ - 4♥(CTL)
4♠(CTL) - 5♣(CTL,odd KC)
6♦ - 6NT
P

West knows we are off a keycard, almost certainly ♦K, which leaves East with at least AKJxxx in spades even assuming the hearts control is the K and the clubs control probably just a singleton. But there are too many risks and 6♦ seems wise.
East knows better, but not enough about the clubs and so settles for 6NT.

[Gilithin]

East finding out that West has ♣AQJxxxx or West finding out about ♠AKQ and ♣K is challenging without using a relay system, particularly since ♦K will often appear to be a critical card during the auction. Some relay systems can definitely get there - if you are interested in that then you might consider reposting in the Artificial Bidding forum.

[DavidKok]

That rather depends on your relay continuations over 1♣-(2♥)-?, or even 1♣-(1♥)-1NT*-(2♥); ?.

In general for any given two set of visible hands it's easy enough to show an auction, relay or otherwise, that gets to the optimal spot. I think with only 13 cards and two opponents it is often not as clear.

[Gilithin]

 DavidKok, on 2023-December-22, 09:18, said:

That rather depends on your relay continuations over 1♣-(2♥)-?, or even 1♣-(1♥)-1NT*-(2♥); ?.

In general for any given two set of visible hands it's easy enough to show an auction, relay or otherwise, that gets to the optimal spot. I think with only 13 cards and two opponents it is often not as clear.

Relays are generally off for strong clubbers after a 2♥ overcall so it would be difficult to show a relay auction in that case. Many systems have relays on after a 1♥ overcall. Whether they are still on after a 2♥ raise then depends on the specific structure being used. Then whether you can find out everything you need to might be tight. At least one of the systems I play around with did get there (albeit not after a 1♣ opening) but it was close. I am fairly sure IMPrecision would manage it and would never bet against Meckwell on such a deal. I also know some relay systems that just run out of space and there are some that do not scan for singleton kings and/or do not fully resolve shape with 7 card suits, so if your point is that not every pair will find it, I would agree. But the OP asked if there is a way to get to the grand and my suggestion is still that relays are the best bet.

[DavidKok]

The point I was attempting to make was stronger. I think relay methods will not do much better than natural methods in finding this grand, or even most slams. This is due to a combination of factors - the opps are more aggressive against artificial strong openings, relays are fragile in competition, and even when left alone relay systems are not a panacea for finding our combined trick-taking potential. I'm sure a relay system exists that will find the optimal spot, just like I can show a 2/1 auction that gets there, but it might well gloss over some of the tough calls and close decisions that would have to be made at the table. It really is much easier for me to visualise partner's hand and our likely best auction if I already know all 26 cards, which is why I didn't give an example auction myself.

I also wouldn't bet against Meckwell. As far as I know they did not use a relay structure, but that is besides the point.

IMPrecision does not continue relay in competition, as far as I know. The downside of semipositive+ transfers in competition is that it is more difficult to establish a game force, and I think the East hand is not worth forcing to game once West shows 5(+) HCP with a long club suit. If IMPrecision gets free reign it uses the superpositive structure 1♣-1♦; 1♠-1NT, 2♣ etc. resolving the East hand up one step from symmetric. The relay continues to 3♠ by East showing a 6=2=4=1, at which point I don't know whether 3NT is 'to play' (West has shown nothing except 7+ Relay points so far) and they resume with a 4♣ control ask, or whether the structure saves more space here. Either way IMPrecision should be able to find the grand from there, the notes state that they do scan singletons so the club king should be found (by contrast e.g. KK relay does not scan singleton kings and might well miss the grand here even if left uninterrupted).

[pescetom]

Another way to reach grand would be for East to take a view and impose spades as trumps, then 7♠ drops out comfortably with our control-bidding. But I would not do that on this hand, we could easily belong in NT or diamonds or clubs.

[fuzzyquack]

With the golden ♣K and a source of tricks, 4N if B-wood or 4H que agreeing ♣s should easily lead to the grand

[Gilithin]

 DavidKok, on 2023-December-22, 10:51, said:

The point I was attempting to make was stronger. I think relay methods will not do much better than natural methods in finding this grand, or even most slams. This is due to a combination of factors - the opps are more aggressive against artificial strong openings, relays are fragile in competition, and even when left alone relay systems are not a panacea for finding our combined trick-taking potential. I'm sure a relay system exists that will find the optimal spot, just like I can show a 2/1 auction that gets there, but it might well gloss over some of the tough calls and close decisions that would have to be made at the table. It really is much easier for me to visualise partner's hand and our likely best auction if I already know all 26 cards, which is why I didn't give an example auction myself.

I also wouldn't bet against Meckwell. As far as I know they did not use a relay structure, but that is besides the point.

IMPrecision does not continue relay in competition, as far as I know. The downside of semipositive+ transfers in competition is that it is more difficult to establish a game force, and I think the East hand is not worth forcing to game once West shows 5(+) HCP with a long club suit. If IMPrecision gets free reign it uses the superpositive structure 1♣-1♦; 1♠-1NT, 2♣ etc. resolving the East hand up one step from symmetric. The relay continues to 3♠ by East showing a 6=2=4=1, at which point I don't know whether 3NT is 'to play' (West has shown nothing except 7+ Relay points so far) and they resume with a 4♣ control ask, or whether the structure saves more space here. Either way IMPrecision should be able to find the grand from there, the notes state that they do scan singletons so the club king should be found (by contrast e.g. KK relay does not scan singleton kings and might well miss the grand here even if left uninterrupted).

We have not been given the opposition bidding so it would be impossible to say how well the various relay methods I know would fare on this hand compared with natural. In general I do find they are better in reaching slams and I have some analysis to back that up. Relays are also not confined to being used over a strong, artificial opening but can just as easily be employed over natural and transfer openings. As I previously mentioned, this was the case for some of the systems I compared this hand to. The hard part of such relay auctions is rarely visualising the hand so much as counting whether you have enough steps to relay safely opposite all hands. Fortunately this hand is relatively easy for that. I do take your point about DD auctions and see plenty of them on bridge forums. Some of the systems I tried for this hand ended up in 6NT for example and I am not ashamed of that result in the least. I would feel pretty bad about myself if I did not reach any slam though.

Meckwell uses relays over their 1♣ opening by any normal definition of that term and also employs several partial relay sequences over 2♣. This East hand would be a 1♣ opener in RM Precision. I won't get into a longer discussion about IMPrecision - that is Adam's system and I consider it a high quality method. The reason why I have particular confidence in it here is that this is a really good hand for parity controls, meaning that the auction is likely to be low enough for all the necessary information to be uncovered in time.

[nullve]

 AL78, on 2023-December-21, 17:44, said:

MPs playing Acol, 3 weak twos, weak NT with a scratch partner but one of the better players in the club:

---

I was West and hoped to get the hand across with a strong jump shift followed by rebidding the clubs to get the suit quality across. 7NT is cold as is 7♣, even 7♦ makes on a finesse. Do you have a way to get to a grand?

nullve(E)-nullve(W)

1♠(1)-2♣(2)
3♣(3)-3♦)(4)
3♥(5)-3♠(6)
4♦(7)-4♥(8)
4N(9)-5♣(10)
6♣(11)-6♥(12)
6♠(13)-7N(14)
P

(1) "10-21, 5+ S, unBAL"
(2) "NAT (GF), not-too-unBAL (GF) or FIT (INV+)"
(3) "16-18, 4+ D, neither (exactly) 5-5 nor 5440"
(4) relay
(5) usually either 5242 (and 16-18 hcp), 6S4D(21) (and 15-17 hcp) or 6+S4+D0C (and "15+")
(6) relay
(7) 6S4D(21) (and 15-17 hcp)
(8) key card ask with D as trumps
(9) odd # of key cards, no trump Q
(10) ♠K ask
(11) ♠K, 6241, ♥K, ♠Q, no ♥Q
(12) ♠J ask (here trying to find out about the ♣K (not scannable), but risking e.g. a 7♣ reply on KQJxxx-KJ-KJTx-K)
(13) no ♠J
(14) a reasonable gamble? (Yes, partner could still have KQTxxx-KJ-KJTx-K!)

[mw64ahw]

Playing West and Acol. I can see myself ending up in 6♣/♦ depending on whether opener shows the ♦ before the 6♠. This is partly because of my lack of developed Acol, playing the occasional club session with a pick-up partner.

Otherwise
1♠ - 2♣ 3+GI
2NT 6♠ extras, unbalanced - 4♣ 7+ SI self-sustaining
4♦ 2KCs - 6♣ all KCs+Q♣ no Kings to show
7NT I can count 13 tricks

[thepossum]

1S-3C
3S-4C
4H!-4NT
5H!-7C


Q-plus adv Acol but with the second 4C bid modified according to the above auction

[Gilithin]

 thepossum, on 2023-December-25, 16:05, said:

1S-3C
3S-4C
4H!-4NT
5H!-7C

Which bid showed the ♠Q? Maybe I misunderstood.