[thepossum]

Hi all

IMPS, robot tourney

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Despite the possible ponits, 4 keys and Q of trumps something made me pass.
I wasn't alone but many went for the Slam

Scored OK

Any thoughts please

[DavidKok]

Something went wrong here. If you bid 4NT that means you were about to leap to 6♥ but were worried about missing two key cards. Partner has got plenty of them, and then you failed to bid the slam. That means you shouldn't have asked for aces, but rather attempted to explore slam through different means.

Similarly I think 4♠ is a very surprising bid. Normally partner would take charge here, and if all that was required for slam was the right number of key cards partner would have bid Blackwood over 4♥. So instead 4♠ does not just show a spade control, it conveys the very specific message that partner is worried about something other than just aces, or can't handle a 2+Q response by you. We learn later in the auction that this was not the case (as partner had 2 key cards), so what's the problem? Either partner is unsure about a minor suit control, or partner was worried about the combined trick-taking potential of both hands. We have the minor suit control but we're lacking good sources of tricks with a minimum, a misfit in spades and 3343 distribution. I'm not sure what the right bid was over 4♠, probably 5♣ to allow a more cooperative investigation (but we know partner likely doesn't have a diamond control, so what are they supposed to do there?). I think the fit was established only at such a high level of the auction that there wasn't enough room to check for everything.

As an aside, partner is aware of us having 3=3 or 2=3 in the majors, so they should know of the partial misfit in spades and no extra trump length in hearts. This is cause to be pessimistic on these Smolen auctions.

In general I would be worried about UI on auctions like this. Asking for aces, hearing you have enough, even having the queen of trumps and then stopping because 'something made you pass' is very often a tell from partner, subconscious or no. If you play "no chickensh*t Blackwood", or perhaps have this in your notes somewhere (I do), this board would be a cause for being written up.

[thepossum]

DavidKok, on 2023-November-30, 15:39, said:

Something went wrong here. If you bid 4NT that means you were about to leap to 6♥ but were worried about missing two key cards. Partner has got plenty of them, and then you failed to bid the slam. That means you shouldn't have asked for aces, but rather attempted to explore slam through different means.

Similarly I think 4♠ is a very surprising bid. Normally partner would take charge here, and if all that was required for slam was the right number of key cards partner would have bid Blackwood over 4♥. So instead 4♠ does not just show a spade control, it conveys the very specific message that partner is worried about something other than just aces, or can't handle a 2+Q response by you. We learn later in the auction that this was not the case (as partner had 2 key cards), so what's the problem? Either partner is unsure about a minor suit control, or partner was worried about the combined trick-taking potential of both hands. We have the minor suit control but we're lacking good sources of tricks with a minimum, a misfit in spades and 3343 distribution. I'm not sure what the right bid was over 4♠, probably 5♣ to allow a more cooperative investigation (but we know partner likely doesn't have a diamond control, so what are they supposed to do there?). I think the fit was established only at such a high level of the auction that there wasn't enough room to check for everything.

In general I would be worried about UI on auctions like this. Asking for aces, hearing you have enough, even having the queen of trumps and then stopping because 'something made you pass' is very often a tell from partner, subconscious or no. If you play "no chickensh*t Blackwood", or perhaps have this in your notes somewhere (I do), this board would be a cause for being written up.

Where is the UI. I was missing a key card

The whole point of Blackwood is to avoid bidding unmakeable slams and I thought it was not a good chance

I would say that to anyone who complai ned and any TD too and I am totally entitled to pass

I just thought gven the hand shape we needed all keys

I disagree with that interpretation of how Blackwood is intended and used. Seriously. No wonder I avoid clubs

But whatever made me pass showed up in my basic Sim which showed a 60% slam and 99% 5 hearts

Also some of us bid within our limitations and I only made 5

My basic principle in non-competitive auctions is to aim for a positive score

But 6 was available to some

[DavidKok]

Blackwood is used to check for two missing key cards, not one. The fifth key card is only a requirement if you are heading for a grand slam. I'm saying that it is in my notes that I would never play at the 5-level after asking for key cards and missing only one. This enables some slightly more efficient followups, but also resolves situations where we need to pause and think for a while before bidding on over a Blackwood response. On your board the opposite happened. This can be for many reasons, and for me personally the auction would not exist.

[Cyberyeti]

ONE WAY TO think about it is "What are the best and worst hands partner is likely to hold ?"

Axxx, KJ109x, QJ, KQ is just off on a spade lead barring a miracle, but fine without one

AKQx, AJ109x, Qxx, x is basically on a finesse for the grand

many middle of the road hands partner will have ♠ AQxx/AKxx and you'll be on the spade finesse as long as he has the ♥J, and a 3-2 break unless he has the ♥10.

I think it's quite close, and normally you want the unlimited hand to do the asking, but I don't see an easy way of doing this on this hand

[thepossum]

Given the 4S cue bid I also felt that signing off in 5H could have been UI

[mikeh]

DavidKok, on 2023-November-30, 15:39, said:

Something went wrong here. If you bid 4NT that means you were about to leap to 6♥ but were worried about missing two key cards. Partner has got plenty of them, and then you failed to bid the slam. That means you shouldn't have asked for aces, but rather attempted to explore slam through different means.

Similarly I think 4♠ is a very surprising bid. Normally partner would take charge here, and if all that was required for slam was the right number of key cards partner would have bid Blackwood over 4♥. So instead 4♠ does not just show a spade control, it conveys the very specific message that partner is worried about something other than just aces, or can't handle a 2+Q response by you. We learn later in the auction that this was not the case (as partner had 2 key cards), so what's the problem? Either partner is unsure about a minor suit control, or partner was worried about the combined trick-taking potential of both hands. We have the minor suit control but we're lacking good sources of tricks with a minimum, a misfit in spades and 3343 distribution. I'm not sure what the right bid was over 4♠, probably 5♣ to allow a more cooperative investigation (but we know partner likely doesn't have a diamond control, so what are they supposed to do there?). I think the fit was established only at such a high level of the auction that there wasn't enough room to check for everything.

As an aside, partner is aware of us having 3=3 or 2=3 in the majors, so they should know of the partial misfit in spades and no extra trump length in hearts. This is cause to be pessimistic on these Smolen auctions.

In general I would be worried about UI on auctions like this. Asking for aces, hearing you have enough, even having the queen of trumps and then stopping because 'something made you pass' is very often a tell from partner, subconscious or no. If you play "no chickensh*t Blackwood", or perhaps have this in your notes somewhere (I do), this board would be a cause for being written up.

I’m not arguing with your thinking, other than to point out that most of what you raise has zero relevance to robot events. You discuss how a bridge player might/should think. Robots literally can’t think that way. They have rather crude algorithms that trigger coded responses when various criteria are met. There is no thinking, no drawing of inferences. There is, as I understand it, simulations based on what the algorithm says are the possible hands consistent with its rather inflexible constraints on what bids mean. UI is a concept that is, I think, irrelevant at least to the ‘analysis’ conducted by the robot.

As for the hand, it’s a minimum in hcp but definitely could be worse given that partner has invited slam. Unfortunately I don’t see any good way forward

Keycard is silly. And should be known to be silly. There is literally no set of responses, to 4N or (if all keycards are shown) 5N that allows opener to place the contract with certainty.

Responder did not keycard.I don’t know enough about robots to know why but, assuming a fairly sensible algorithm, it’s logical to infer that it has at least one minor uncontrolled. It can’t/shouldn’t use keycard when the ‘wrong’ response leaves it not knowing whether a minor AK might cash. So AKQx AKJxx xx xx can’t be sure opener isn’t Jxx QJx AKQJx Qx, as one somewhat contrived example shows.

Btw, in my partnerships we have many uses for 4N. One way we expand those uses in constructive auctions is that any hand that opens some number of notrump (or 2C then notrump) cannot keycard. We’ve never missed a good contract nor got to a poor contract where having keycard available would have helped. But we’ve definitely bid some good slams from having 4N available in some auctions as ‘I’m interested but I have no convenient cuebid’.

Here, this principle works well.

4S, being a cuebid beyond game by an unlimited partner, forces opener to cue any first round control in a minor. So his bids can be analyzed as follows:

5H…horrible hand, no minor ace. Say QJx QJx KQJx KJx

5m…I have this ace, it the other

4N…both minor aces, what do you want to do?

Now, while I think this is fairly straightforward, I recognize that most players don’t have the ‘limited hand can’t keycard’ rule.

So playing with a robot? It’s a guess


Btw, 4H should deny a great hand. Use 4C or 4D as advance cuebids agreeing hearts….nobody should be bidding 4m over 3S as an offer for that suit to be trump.

[DavidKok]

I completely missed that this was a robot tournament, sorry. Nothing I said applies in that context. I have no idea how they work.

[thepossum]

Thanks for the comments

Here was one of the two hands that made 6. Two of us made 5, a few in 3NT and the rest in slam minus something

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I was happy with my decision to go for a vulnerable game

[bluenikki]

DavidKok, on 2023-November-30, 19:06, said:

I completely missed that this was a robot tournament, sorry. Nothing I said applies in that context. I have no idea how they work.

I've not had the nerve yet, but it's worthwhile to keep the robot from bidding 4NT itself.

[thepossum]

bluenikki, on 2023-December-01, 17:13, said:

I've not had the nerve yet, but it's worthwhile to keep the robot from bidding 4NT itself.

This.You need to take the intitiative sometimes but one other player invited slam with 5 hearts and North passed

Actually no, the 5H was probably an attempt at sign off ignoring all those possible cue bids

But after a 4S cue there is not much room to decide on a plan - I think what scared me offwas a combination of possible spade losers and missing a top heart. I hadn't allowed for the 4-1 break either

[thepossum]

DavidKok, on 2023-November-30, 19:06, said:

I completely missed that this was a robot tournament, sorry. Nothing I said applies in that context. I have no idea how they work.

But the bidding considerations with that kind of hand are still there and proved difficult

And I am interested in the discussions of the Bridge rather than people obsessing over the robots

[Cyberyeti]

Not sure if I'd find it quickly enough at the table, but when S leads a small heart up, K from K10 could be a devastating false card.