[helene_t]

thepossum, on 2023-May-13, 20:05, said:

---

I was currious if our future overlords could bid those hands better than we mortals, so I let Bard sit south and chatGPT west. I took the North and East seat myself. The auctions proceeded:
pass-1♦-pass-1♠
2♦-3♦-dbl-a.p.

Note that it was W who opened 1♦ - the auction would have made a bit more sense if we rotated it 90 degress so that it was South that opened 1♦.

At the other table, same setup but now chatGPT South and Bard West, it went

1♥-2♥-2♠-4♠
dbl-a.p.

Again, note that it was South who opened 1♥.

Their reasoning for their bids was absolutely nonsense, contradicting themselves, thinking that 12 points is more than 14 points etc. chatGPT, in a single paragraph, first recited his hand correctly but then corrected himself by noting that he had been dealt 20 cards, which he apparently found normal as his version of SAYC apparently has systematic bids for hands with 20 cads. Psychedelic stuff like "I have a balanced 15-17 so I open 1♦ which is my longest suit as I have six clubs" (chatGPT on the hand with seven hearts). But at least they didn't make any insufficient bids.

I am disappointed with Bard who has demonstrated reasonable knowledge of the SAYC bidding system on other deals. Not this time, although at least Bard bids diamonds when he has diamonds and hearts when he has hearts, while chatGPT bids fairly randomly. chatGPT is still to show any sign of life bridge-wise, as far as I have observed.

[pescetom]

Yesterday one of our beginners (after 6 months of teaching and practice) was surprised that spades did not beat hearts in a trick of NT. So there is some hope for Bard.

[helene_t]

When comparing Bard and chatGPT, my impression is that Bard has better reasoning skills but poorer language skills. For example, Bard will get basic VAT calculations right (chatGPT doesn't). But Bard is sensible to the exact way the question is phrased and is more likely to misunderstand questions than chatGPT is.

So whether you write the 10 as "10" or as "T" makes no difference to chatGPT, while Bard gives different answers. I think that it is the "10" which it interprets correctly but I am not 100% sure.

It is possible that Bard would bid better if I took more care, maybe refering to the other players as N, S, and E instead of LHO, RHO and partner. Or some such.

Bart can generally determine opening bids for SAYC but when I ask it to bid using Acol it confuses the notrump range. Maybe it uses a mixture of Dutch Acol and English Acol sources.

When you ask Bard to tell you a joke about for example how many bridge players are needed to change a lightbulb, it will tell you a boring joke and then elaborate on why the joke is funny.

[LBengtsson]

Artificial Intelligence will never beat Common Sense. Period.

[barmar]

What would possibly make you think that a predictive language model would know anything about bridge bidding? All it knows how to do is find patterns of words in its database, and put these patterns together to produce its texts.

So unless there's a web page that includes your hand diagrams and then a bidding diagram, where would it come up with bidding for this?

Repeat after me: ChatGPT doesn't actually know anything. It's just repeating things it has heard.

[pilowsky]

barmar, on 2023-May-26, 16:33, said:

Repeat after me: ChatGPT doesn't actually know anything. It's just repeating things it has heard.

So quite similar to most bridge players in a way.

[helene_t]

barmar, on 2023-May-26, 16:33, said:

What would possibly make you think that a predictive language model would know anything about bridge bidding?

chatGPT can play chess and it can make sample size calculations for clinical trials. Basically, it can predict what a popular answer on Redit would be to a wide variety of questions.

When chatGPT plays chess, it will occasionaly move pieces that don't exist, which confirms that the rules and objectives of the game haven't been programmed explicitly, but apparently there are enough chess discussions in its inputs to allow it to play decent chess for the most part, i.e. predicting what a redit user would answer to just about any question about what the best move would be in a given situation.

I don't see any reason why it shouldn't be able to play bridge also. But of course bridge is more challenging. What bid a forum user might recommend in a given situation depends on partnership agreements and the opponents' system. And maybe bridge also has less standardized input formats than chess has, or simply less data.

[barmar]

If there were microphones distributed throughout all the bridge tournament venues, recording all the "you hold...." conversations and uploading them to web sites, ChatGPT *might* get enough information to create sensible bridge auctions.

I'll bet its chess answers get progressively less sensible as the game progresses. There are only a few openings, so it will easily learn these just as human chess players do.

This is similar to what it's like programming bridge robots. The basic opening bids are easy to program, but it gets much more complicated after 2 or 3 rounds of bidding because there are so many combinations of previous bids. Bridge programs know how to merge the information implied by each bid to create a general representation of the other players' hands, and they use this. But a generative language model like ChatGPT doesn't do that, it's just matching patterns of text.

[pilowsky]

As it happens it's completely useless at chess according to world number 4 or 5 (depending on the day) Hikaru Nakamura.

[bobtehnoob]

Have you seen CGPT try to play chess? It's moves make sense for the first handful of them, but it's just reciting common move responses to its opponents moves, rather than legal moves based on the board state, because CGPT does not know the rules of chess so it cannot compute the board state.

[smerriman]

bobtehnoob, on 2023-June-13, 14:58, said:

Have you seen CGPT try to play chess? It's moves make sense for the first handful of them, but it's just reciting common move responses to its opponents moves, rather than legal moves based on the board state, because CGPT does not know the rules of chess so it cannot compute the board state.

You're probably thinking of v3, and not v4. It's still not very good, but it's able to play complete games of chess.

[thepossum]

Hi. Update on ChatGPT's (v4) bidding prowess

User
Hi, do you know the game of BRidge. If I gave you a hand could you tell me how to bid it

ChatGPT
Yes, I can certainly help you with that. Bridge is a complex game with many different bidding systems (Standard American, ACOL, SAYC, Precision Club, etc.), and each of these systems has different rules and conventions.

If you give me the details of your hand, I'll do my best to help you form a bid. Please also tell me the bidding system you are using if you know it, as this will help me give you the most accurate advice.


User
Do you have a convenient notation for hands
ChatGPT
Sure, in bridge, each player's hand is typically notated as a sequence of four groups of cards, each group representing one suit. The suits are usually ordered from spades, hearts, diamonds, to clubs. Here's an example of how to notate a hand:

Spades (S): AKQJ
Hearts (H): 87
Diamonds (D): 654
Clubs ©: 432

This would be written as: S:AKQJ H:87 D:654 C:432

If you have no cards in a suit, you would write that suit with a dash. For example, if you had no clubs, you would write: S:AKQJ H:87 D:654 C:-

Please note that this notation system is commonly used, but there may be slight variations depending on personal preferences or regional practices.

Feel free to share your hand using this notation and I'd be glad to help you with your bidding strategy.

User
ok thanks. we are opening the bidding with S:K6543 H:Q D:AKQ5 C:AT2 and playing 2/1
ChatGPT
In the 2/1 Game Forcing system of bidding in bridge, you count your High Card Points (HCP) to decide your opening bid. Aces are 4 points, Kings are 3, Queens are 2, and Jacks are 1.

Your hand's points are as follows:

Spades: King (3 points)
Hearts: Queen (2 points)
Diamonds: Ace (4 points), King (3 points), Queen (2 points)
Clubs: Ace (4 points), Ten (0 points)
Adding these up, you have 18 high card points (HCP).

Typically, if you have 12-21 HCP and your hand is balanced (you have no voids, at most one singleton, and no more than two doubletons), you would open with 1 of your longest major suit. In your case, your hand is semi-balanced and the spade suit is your longest, so you should open with 1 Spade.

If your partner responds with a new suit at the 2 level, which will be game-forcing, you will then try to find a fit in either your major suit or your partner's proposed suit, or you may bid No Trump if your hands are balanced and there's no fit.

If your partner responds with 1NT, you can bid 2 Diamonds next to show your second suit, and your partner can then either pass or continue the bidding depending on their hand.

Please note that bridge bidding can be complex and there are many different strategies, but this is a basic overview of how you might proceed given your hand.


User
sorry I forgot to say we were second seat and RHO had passed. I have opened 1 spade as you suggest. LHO has passed and partner has bid 2 hearts. RHO passes again. What should be my rebid
ChatGPT
Your partner's 2 Hearts bid in a 2/1 Game Forcing (GF) system typically indicates at least 5 hearts and around 10 or more high card points. It's also game-forcing, which means the bidding cannot stop before you reach a game contract.

Your hand has three hearts which is a decent fit for your partner's hearts. But with your 18 points, plus the 10+ points that your partner has, it's likely you can aim for a higher contract.

To further describe your hand, you could show your second suit, diamonds, which you haven't mentioned so far. You could bid 3 Diamonds to indicate you have at least 4 cards in this suit and it's relatively strong.

Remember, bidding strategies can be complex and the "best" bid often depends on your partner's responses and your overall bidding strategy. But showing your second suit seems like a reasonable next step here.

User
OK lets bid 3D, opps continue to pass and partner bids 3 spades. What should be me next bid
ChatGPT
Your partner's 3 Spades bid is a good sign, as it suggests they have support for your initial suit and that they have at least 3 Spades in their hand.

At this point, since you have two suits (Spades and Diamonds) with solid support and a good point count (18 HCP), you could aim for game. Given that you have more spades and your partner also has shown support in spades, a 4 Spades bid would be reasonable. This contract would require you to take 10 tricks with Spades as the trump suit.

This move should typically end the bidding unless your partner has additional points or length in the spades or other suits to suggest a possible slam contract (6 Spades). But with the information currently available, bidding 4 Spades seems like a solid choice.

User
ok thankyou. do you think it is worth me exploring for slam with a cue bid instead
ChatGPT
Given your high point count (18 HCP) and your partner's game-forcing bid (which suggests they have around 10+ HCP), you do indeed have a reasonable chance of making a slam.

A cue-bidding sequence can help you explore whether slam is a viable option. Cue-bidding is a way to communicate to your partner about controls (Aces, Kings, and sometimes voids or singletons) you have in other suits.

You can bid 4 Hearts as a cue-bid, showing control of the Heart suit (which you have with your Queen), and this will allow your partner to provide further information about their hand. If they also cue-bid, indicating another suit where they have control, you may be on track for a slam. If they sign off at 4 Spades, it means they probably lack the values for slam.

Remember that exploring for slam can sometimes be risky. You should generally only try for a slam if you have reason to believe that your combined hands have the strength to make 12 tricks. But given your strong hand and your partner's game-forcing response, a cue-bid to explore for slam could be a reasonable decision.


User
we only cue bid Aces first time followed by Kings so I will cue bid 4 clubs. Partner then bids 4H showing the Ace of hearts. What do you think next
ChatGPT
Given the communication so far, it's evident that your partner has the Ace of Hearts. This is great news, as it means you have control in Spades, Hearts, and Clubs. Since your diamond suit is already strong (AKQ), the possibility of a slam seems promising.

In bridge, a "Blackwood" convention is often used at this point to ask partner specifically about their number of aces and then kings. You start the Blackwood convention by bidding 4NT, which is a not a request to play in No Trump, but is asking your partner how many aces they have.

Partner will respond:

5C for 0 or 4 aces
5D for 1 ace
5H for 2 aces
5S for 3 aces
If your partner shows one or more aces (which they should, given the Ace of Hearts), you can then bid 5NT to ask about kings.

Remember, though, that Blackwood should only be used when you're confident that your side has all the suits controlled. Here, it seems that your side does, so bidding 4NT to start the Blackwood convention could be your next move.


User
We are playing Roman Key Card Blackwood and partner has bid 5H indicating 2 keycards but not the Queen of trumps. What do you think next
ChatGPT
Roman Key Card Blackwood (RKCB) is an extension of the Blackwood convention, where not only are the four Aces considered "key cards," but the King of the named trump suit is as well, making a total of five key cards.

In the RKCB system, a 5H response after the 4NT bid signifies two key cards but without the Queen of trumps. In your case, it means your partner has two out of the five "key cards" -- the four Aces and the King of Spades. We already know that one of these is the Ace of Hearts, but we don't know the second one.

Since the response also clarified that your partner does not have the Queen of Spades (since you have chosen Spades as your trump), you now need to decide if you want to play the contract in Small Slam (6 level) or push for a Grand Slam (7 level). Considering the information so far, you are missing two key cards and the Queen of your trump suit.

Given that information, bidding a Small Slam (6 Spades) seems to be a reasonable decision. It shows that you are confident in winning at least 12 tricks, without overreaching and risking not making your contract. While a Grand Slam could be possible if the missing key card and Queen are favorably placed, a bid of 6 Spades is a more conservative and likely successful bid.


User
But we have 3 key cards in our hand and partner has the other 2 but we don't have the Queen of trumps. Do you think a small slam is possible given only 8 trumps and no Queen
ChatGPT
You're right, my apologies for the confusion. With 3 key cards in your hand and 2 in your partner's, that accounts for all 5 key cards. However, your partner does not have the Queen of Spades, which reduces the likelihood of a slam contract.

Usually, for a small slam in a major, you'd want at least 9 combined trumps and/or strong controls in the side suits. Your current holding in the Spades suit is a bit risky for a slam, especially lacking the Queen of trumps.

Given this information, it might be prudent to sign off at 5 Spades. This would show that you are not confident enough to bid for a small slam, but that you are willing to try for 11 tricks. The likelihood of losing a trick to the Queen of Spades (if it's unfavorably placed) or due to the lack of length in the Spades suit makes the 5 Spades contract a safer choice.


User
ok thankyou. That is what I did and was the right bid
ChatGPT
You're welcome! I'm glad to hear that you found the advice helpful and that your decision to bid 5 Spades worked out well. Bridge is a complex game with many factors to consider, so it's always satisfying when a bidding strategy turns out to be successful. If you have any more questions about bridge, or anything else, feel free to ask. Enjoy your game!





User
Thankyou
ChatGPT
You're welcome! If you have any other questions in the future, don't hesitate to ask. Enjoy your bridge games and have a great day!

[barmar]

Twice ChatGPT said that partner's 2/1 response showed 10+ points, when it should be more like 12+. 10+ would be correct for SAYC.

At one point it claimed that you have 3 hearts when you only have 1.

Other than that, not too bad. Pedants will says that the correct term should be "control bid" rather than "cue bid". But since ChatGPT gets its information by culling text written by people, and many players say "cue bid", there's no reason to fault it for using the same terminology.

[thepossum]

I was just using GiB terminology and style of control/cue bids