[thepossum]

Hi

I appreciate I may be one of the few who occasionally carelessly starts a Daylong tourney and is booted out on the last hand

It's happened more with the Acol since I forget they are on different time zones

Any chance of a 5 minute warning

[OldPlayr]

Getting booted out is a major disappointment. Playing in express tournaments I frequently get logged out while considering a difficult bid or play. Racing to quickly act does not promote good bridge. Some sort of audible warning would be a great improvement. I clearly am not alone in this as I notice that by the time an express tournament finishes, 1/3 to 1/2 of the hands are played by robots. Online poker sites all have audible warnings, which works very well.

[pescetom]

OldPlayr, on 2022-December-29, 11:24, said:

Getting booted out is a major disappointment. Playing in express tournaments I frequently get logged out while considering a difficult bid or play. Racing to quickly act does not promote good bridge. Some sort of audible warning would be a great improvement. I clearly am not alone in this as I notice that by the time an express tournament finishes, 1/3 to 1/2 of the hands are played by robots. Online poker sites all have audible warnings, which works very well.

With respect to Express Tournaments, a great number of people over the years have complained about the lack of effective warning (audio and/or clearly visible countdown), to no avail so far.

[OldPlayr]

pescetom, on 2022-December-29, 15:42, said:

With respect to Express Tournaments, a great number of people over the years have complained about the lack of effective warning (audio and/or clearly visible countdown), to no avail so far.

Do suggestions here ever prompt changes?

[pescetom]

OldPlayr, on 2022-December-30, 13:19, said:

Do suggestions here ever prompt changes?

Only occasionally, I think it is fair to say.

[croquetfan]

I agree. I have to thank BBO for refunding my entry when I have done this but there should be a warning. Probably 10 minutes as it's hard to finish a daylong in 5.

[pilowsky]

It's surprising that it appears to be difficult to implement a turn timer on Bridge sites when they are ubiquitous on chess (and presumably other) sites.

[barmar]

pilowsky, on 2022-December-30, 21:30, said:

It's surprising that it appears to be difficult to implement a turn timer on Bridge sites when they are ubiquitous on chess (and presumably other) sites.

Because they're very different games.

[pescetom]

barmar, on 2023-January-04, 10:30, said:

Because they're very different games.

It's not difficult to make a bridge player clearly aware that he is about to be kicked out of a tournament.
A little yellow window on the edge of the play area doesn't cut it IMO.

[pilowsky]

barmar, on 2023-January-04, 10:30, said:

Because they're very different games.

I disagree with the 'very' part.

While it is true that they are different games, there are many similarities.
In some ways Bridge can be characterised as a chess puzzle in that players are given a particular situation with a known set of solutions and they have to solve it.

A key similarity is that they are turn-taking games where each participant makes one legal move at a time with the objective of defeating the other player (/pair of players).
The requirement to to do this in an allotted time makes chess (and many other sports) more exciting.
Timing is particularly valuable in online games to reduce cheating and smurfing.

There is no reason that is intrinsic to the game of bridge that means you cannot have a clock and BBO, recognising this, has actually implemented one in its Directorless pairs games.

Given that someone who writes code on BBO has already implemented a form of timing already - and dispensed with directors - why not go the whole hog and implement an optional (in the sense that the person setting up the tournament can include one and set the parameters) clock with a visible countdown timer so that players can try it out.
Discussions on stack exchange suggest that it's pretty straightforward.

The additional tension generated by a timed element will make the game much more appealing to younger players - something BBO and Bridge in general badly needs.

[OldPlayr]

barmar, on 2023-January-04, 10:30, said:

Because they're very different games.

I don't understand... Time is time, in whatever game. When time is running out, a warning isn't hard!

[mycroft]

Please give me an answer to my perennial question:

When a player asks a question at their turn, whose clock is it on?

Note that this answer should handle the fact that:

- if it's my (the answerer's) clock, then my incentive is to give as little information as I can get away with, and when re-asked, complain about them wasting my time.
- if it's their clock, then my incentive is to either ignore it (just for 5 seconds - I'm a slow typist/I didn't see it) or give full, overly complete, non-abbreviated answers. Or, you know, do a whole bunch of "useless" asking "because it's important to know if it's 8 actual HCP, or just points, or how much distribution matters,..."

Sure that violates "full disclosure regulations", even more than the current system, but what ya gonna do?

Of course, we'll have to implement enforced pauses after all skip bids and at trick 1, because the people in time pressure will auto-pass (well, unless they actually do have something to think about) or autoplay (costing the opponents thinking time, and also providing lots of opportunities for passing of information (which they will bring the director into).

Oh, about the director - when the director is called, who's clock is on? And if it's "nobody", what does that do for the rest of the room which hasn't had a director call?

And we'll have to have something like "turns" in M:tG at end of round (which makes their 50 minute rounds take 70 or so; in fact a card was banned in Modern not because it was unfair, but because the "go off" turn could take 15 minutes and delay the rest of the event. Okay, the clock on MTGO (nline) solves that problem (and replaces it with another, like BBO's "End of round" timeout), but only because there are hundreds of "clock presses" a match, all of which are automatic.)

It would be interesting. I would like to solve the issue of slow play; in particular I'd be happy if I wasn't catching everyone up more sessions than not (because I should be entitled to some of that time lost every round by the pair in front of us being late). And I'm pretty certain there are answers to this (even if some of them are "prove it to the TD, and we'll penalize these kinds of cheese plays into oblivion"). But given how well-enforced the current laws and regulations are (and how much pushback the directors get when they actually attempt to enforce them better), I'll put my effort into something with a higher return, like nominating the Speaker of the House.

None of this has anything to do with Daylongs, of course. I absolutely think a 30-minute warning flag should be programmed in so the player knows they can't go get coffee or whatever if she wants to finish the 12 boards.

[pilowsky]

mycroft, on 2023-January-05, 17:52, said:

Please give me an answer to my perennial question:

When a player asks a question at their turn, whose clock is it on?

This is much less of a problem than you imagine.
If you play chess you see that when there is a dispute the clock is stopped and the arbiter/director is called.
If a player has made an illegal move then the director can penalise the clock of the offending side - watch how quickly players will start to adhere to the rules if this happens.
Full disclosure is part of the rules. Failure to fully disclose (as determined by the Director) would earn a temporal breach.
If the Director is satisfied that an explanation is reasonable then the clock is restarted.

In the circumstance of a Bridge clock the 'call TD' button would automatically stop the clock which can only be restarted by the Director.

The big advantage over the current system is that now the Director has an additional simple penalty - time - at their disposal.

In the current arrangement players can stop a game with no fear of penalty - hardly fair at all.

[mycroft]

Okay, sure, that works - for that table.

Of course, it works in a chess event where the rounds are two or three a day, and two minutes here or there doesn't affect anything.

Two or three minutes does - what - in 2 board, 15 minute rounds? Remember, the issue with slow play isn't that your game is slower; it's that instead of taking 3 hours to play 27 boards, it takes 3h30 - for everybody, not just the slow pairs, because one table's delay (eventually) affects the whole movement.

Of other course, you could go the curling route (which also applies in chess) and say that if you run out of time, you lose (*).

Okay, what does "lose" mean on a matchpointed board? A Victory-pointed Swiss match?

* Technically, you don't lose. You're just not allowed to throw any more stones. Same thing, 99+% of the time.

[OldPlayr]

mycroft, on 2023-January-06, 09:10, said:

Okay, sure, that works - for that table.

Of course, it works in a chess event where the rounds are two or three a day, and two minutes here or there doesn't affect anything.

Two or three minutes does - what - in 2 board, 15 minute rounds? Remember, the issue with slow play isn't that your game is slower; it's that instead of taking 3 hours to play 27 boards, it takes 3h30 - for everybody, not just the slow pairs, because one table's delay (eventually) affects the whole movement.

Of other course, you could go the curling route (which also applies in chess) and say that if you run out of time, you lose (*).

Okay, what does "lose" mean on a matchpointed board? A Victory-pointed Swiss match?

* Technically, you don't lose. You're just not allowed to throw any more stones. Same thing, 99+% of the time.

All I am asking is that BBO give me an audible or clear Visual warning before suddenly completely logging me off in express tournaments. Not a complicated request....

[barmar]

OldPlayr, on 2023-January-06, 10:20, said:

All I am asking is that BBO give me an audible or clear Visual warning before suddenly completely logging me off in express tournaments. Not a complicated request....

It does. There's a popup warning 5-10 seconds before you're kicked out of the tournament.

[OldPlayr]

barmar, on 2023-January-06, 14:11, said:

It does. There's a popup warning 5-10 seconds before you're kicked out of the tournament.

I've not seen a popup in express tournaments. Just a small, easy to miss, box in the lower right. Then suddenly, one is logged out completely with no way to rejoin, or even watch, the play. Nothing that catches attention. No audio warning sound.

[pescetom]

OldPlayr, on 2023-January-06, 14:52, said:

I've not seen a popup in express tournaments. Just a small, easy to miss, box in the lower right. Then suddenly, one is logged out completely with no way to rejoin, or even watch, the play. Nothing that catches attention. No audio warning sound.

I and others have been saying that politely for at least a decade.

The interface could:
- give an impossible to miss visual warning
- give an audio warning - even using (gasp) voice
- call Pass (now and for the rest of the auction) when time expires and you are still connected, rather than kick you out

just to give a few easy to implement improvements.

[mycroft]

OldPlayr, I apologize. I did say at the end of my comment about "oh, chess has solved the clock problem, why can't bridge" that the issue being discussed by the OP (daylongs ending at strange-o'clock); and yours (express tournaments having a pool-like "shot clock" should be obvious, and it seems it doesn't) fits the same way - yes, absolutely should be fixed.

But the general case of "slow play can be solved by a chess clock, because there's no difference" - well, I agree with barmar.

Again, I apologize that it wasn't obvious that I was making a digression away from those other games.

[barmar]

OldPlayr, on 2023-January-06, 14:52, said:

I've not seen a popup in express tournaments. Just a small, easy to miss, box in the lower right. Then suddenly, one is logged out completely with no way to rejoin, or even watch, the play. Nothing that catches attention. No audio warning sound.

That box in the lower right is what I meant by popup.

I don't find these easy to miss, unless I'm not looking at the computer. Chat messages are easy to miss, though.