[pescetom]

MP

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This hand exposed some uncertainties in the bidding of our intermediate pairs, although the majority did stagger into the right contract.
Most pairs are playing a style of 2/1 where a rebid of 3♦ promises some extra strength (HCP and/or distribution) and the alternative is to repeat spades.
How should they continue here and how would it go in your usual partnership?

[DavidKok]

I like to bid good 5-card suits, so I think we would simply bid 1♠-2♥; 3♦-3♥; 4♥. Opener can bid 3♠ as a punt for 3NT, so responder should opt for rebidding the good 6-card suit over volunteering the excellent club stopper immediately.
There are many other plausible actions depending on partnership agreement. These are difficult hands to bid, and there are multiple reasonable choices. 1♠-2♥; 3♦ is also the auction that gets you the highest in three rounds of all non-jump auctions, and leads to the most complications. The pairs who consider the East hand too weak for a 3♦ rebid will have more bidding space: 1♠-2♥; 2♠-3♣; 3NT looks reasonable, though opener may wish to fish for the sixth heart with 3♦ on the third round. The downside of bidding fourth suit over 3♣ is that responder will never believe your diamonds are this good, but on the likely continuation 3♥-4♥ responder should be disciplined and pass with not much in reserve.

[pescetom]

 DavidKok, on 2022-December-14, 11:21, said:

I like to bid good 5-card suits, so I think we would simply bid 1♠-2♥; 3♦-3♥; 4♥. Opener can bid 3♠ as a punt for 3NT, so responder should opt for rebidding the good 6-card suit over volunteering the excellent club stopper immediately.
There are many other plausible actions depending on partnership agreement. These are difficult hands to bid, and there are multiple reasonable choices. 1♠-2♥; 3♦ is also the auction that gets you the highest in three rounds of all non-jump auctions, and leads to the most complications. The pairs who consider the East hand too weak for a 3♦ rebid will have more bidding space: 1♠-2♥; 2♠-3♣; 3NT looks reasonable, though opener may wish to fish for the sixth heart with 3♦ on the third round. The downside of bidding fourth suit over 3♣ is that responder will never believe your diamonds are this good, but on the likely continuation 3♥-4♥ responder should be disciplined and pass with not much in reserve.

Thanks for that and I agree 99%, in particular about showing 5-5 shape even with this hand.
My only reserve is about 1♠-2♥; 2♠-3♣ where I would much prefer to fish for the sixth heart, partner should trust me and the system.

[DavidKok]

 pescetom, on 2022-December-14, 14:07, said:

Thanks for that and I agree 99%, in particular about showing 5-5 shape even with this hand.
My only reserve is about 1♠-2♥; 2♠-3♣ where I would much prefer to fish for the sixth heart, partner should trust me and the system.

The issue with fourth suit 3♦ on that auction is that the followups can be murky. Presumably 3NT shows a diamond stopper and 3♠ shows a doubleton in support, so is 3♥ a punt making 3NT pass-or-correct-to-4♥, or is 3♥ a punt and 3NT to-play-but-I-was-fishing-for-the-perfect-hand, or is responder supposed to bypass 3NT with a sixth heart? You very much can't have your cake and eat it too on this auction. Some people will also have agreements along the lines of '4th suit then bidding 3NT shows a single(/half) stopper, while bidding it directly shows a double(/single) stopper'. On the example hands that would limit your options severely with good diamond length, but it helps tremendously finding 4M when it is right.
Some people will even insist that if responder chooses 3♠ that sets trump, so that (Non-)Serious 3NT is on (the logic being: if you don't care for doubleton support, why ask?). Now what?

[helene_t]

- 1♠
2♥-2♠
3♣-3♦
3♥-4♥
pass

But in real life it would go
- 1♠
2♥-2♠
3♣-3NT
pass

This system sucks.

[mikeh]

Playing 2/1 can be very good for game and slam bidding. However, 2/1 often struggles when the partnership lacks an easily established fit but both partners have roughly an ace or king over a reasonable minimum…say each has around 16 hcp.

Since in auctions that start 1S 2H usually contain a suit or two suits that can serve as a trick source even absent a primary fit (picture AQJxx opposite Kx in both suits…10 winners but no card fit…this is obviously an exaggerated example, to make a point) slam is often available…anywhere from good to ok….despite the lack of a good 6 card suit or an 8 card trump fit.

The problem lies in 1S 2H 3C or (even worse) 3D….when that call could be a misfitting 5-5 12 count or a good but not great 5=4 16 count.

What’s responder to do over 3m with no rebiddable major, no fit, and the unbid suit stopped? He rebids 3N with his nice 13 (or if you play sound opening bids, his nice 12.

Now opener, with his 15-16 is in a pickle. Absent a fit 4N may fail when responder has a minimum yet slam may be good opposite a nice 16

Meanwhile, responder was in a similar quandary. 1S 2H 3D 4N is natural (if you play it as keycard, I suggest you stop doing it) but imo it should and, again imo, does in standard show roughly 17-18.

So with his 16, he bids 3N, knowing that the partnership is odds on t9 languish there even with a combined and working 32 or 31 hcp….or will reach too many poor 4N contracts with a misfitting 27 or 28 hcp.

That’s why many 2/1 players reserve 1S 2H 3m to show extras…it makes life much easier when responder has the problem hand.

Partnerships like Meckwell don’t use this rule, but of course their opener can never have even a good 15…they play a strong club method with frequent upgrades. That’s definitely an advantage, but one can’t just adopt their treatment in a 2/1 non big club method.

[pescetom]

 DavidKok, on 2022-December-14, 14:26, said:

The issue with fourth suit 3♦ on that auction is that the followups can be murky. Presumably 3NT shows a diamond stopper and 3♠ shows a doubleton in support, so is 3♥ a punt making 3NT pass-or-correct-to-4♥, or is 3♥ a punt and 3NT to-play-but-I-was-fishing-for-the-perfect-hand, or is responder supposed to bypass 3NT with a sixth heart? You very much can't have your cake and eat it too on this auction. Some people will also have agreements along the lines of '4th suit then bidding 3NT shows a single(/half) stopper, while bidding it directly shows a double(/single) stopper'. On the example hands that would limit your options severely with good diamond length, but it helps tremendously finding 4M when it is right.
Some people will even insist that if responder chooses 3♠ that sets trump, so that (Non-)Serious 3NT is on (the logic being: if you don't care for doubleton support, why ask?). Now what?

One of many tricky developments I agree, hence the post.
Although I prefer 3♠ to set trump but leave 3NT as natural rather than Non-Serious.

 helene_t, on 2022-December-14, 16:13, said:

- 1♠
2♥-2♠
3♣-3♦
3♥-4♥
p

Yes, that is the auction I would expect from our players who chose the low road.

Although the following is also possible:
- 1♠
2♥-2♠
2NT-3♦
3♥-4♥
p
where 2NT is an artificial 'punt' asking opener to continue to describe his hand.
Curious to know which of the two choices people retain more appropriate for this hand and why.

[pescetom]

 mikeh, on 2022-December-14, 16:18, said:

Playing 2/1 can be very good for game and slam bidding. However, 2/1 often struggles when the partnership lacks an easily established fit but both partners have roughly an ace or king over a reasonable minimum…say each has around 16 hcp.

Since in auctions that start 1S 2H usually contain a suit or two suits that can serve as a trick source even absent a primary fit (picture AQJxx opposite Kx in both suits…10 winners but no card fit…this is obviously an exaggerated example, to make a point) slam is often available…anywhere from good to ok….despite the lack of a good 6 card suit or an 8 card trump fit.

The problem lies in 1S 2H 3C or (even worse) 3D….when that call could be a misfitting 5-5 12 count or a good but not great 5=4 16 count.

What’s responder to do over 3m with no rebiddable major, no fit, and the unbid suit stopped? He rebids 3N with his nice 13 (or if you play sound opening bids, his nice 12.

Now opener, with his 15-16 is in a pickle. Absent a fit 4N may fail when responder has a minimum yet slam may be good opposite a nice 16

Meanwhile, responder was in a similar quandary. 1S 2H 3D 4N is natural (if you play it as keycard, I suggest you stop doing it) but imo it should and, again imo, does in standard show roughly 17-18.

So with his 16, he bids 3N, knowing that the partnership is odds on t9 languish there even with a combined and working 32 or 31 hcp….or will reach too many poor 4N contracts with a misfitting 27 or 28 hcp.

That’s why many 2/1 players reserve 1S 2H 3m to show extras…it makes life much easier when responder has the problem hand.

Partnerships like Meckwell don’t use this rule, but of course their opener can never have even a good 15…they play a strong club method with frequent upgrades. That’s definitely an advantage, but one can’t just adopt their treatment in a 2/1 non big club method.

More in general, it seems evident that 3m must show extra strength so that responder in misfit or minor fit can decide whether or not to venture beyond 3NT.
The question posed by this hand is whether a minimum HCP but decent 5-5 qualifies as extra strength: I gather that unlike DavidKok you suggest no, rebid spades and save the 3m bid for hands with extra honours values.