[ArcLight]

Ron Klinger in his "Modern Losing Trick Count" advocates using Long Suit Trial/Help bids. They are used in a sequence 1M - 2M - 3x where the 3 x bid is asking pard for help in the x suit. If he has some decent support, bid game, else correct to 3M.
A short suit trial bid is the opposite, where you are asking pard to reevaluate their hand based on your shortness in the x suit.

Are these effective systemes? Are they used by good players?

[coyot]

ArcLight, on Jul 12 2005, 12:26 PM, said:

Ron Klinger in his "Modern Losing Trick Count" advocates using Long Suit Trial/Help bids. They are used in a sequence 1M - 2M - 3x where the 3 x bid is asking pard for help in the x suit. If he has some decent support, bid game, else correct to 3M.
A short suit trial bid is the opposite, where you are asking pard to reevaluate their hand based on your shortness in the x suit.

Are these effective systemes? Are they used by good players?

I would consider them very effective... They will get you to game on many 20-22pointish hands that fit together well...

So you should not ask whether they are used, but which variants are the most used...

I know about three of them:

1M-2M-new suit bid as a long-suit (at least 3rd honor is considered enough in some cases ))

1M-2M-2NT asking partner to bid the first suit with values (when you have equal holdings in two suits and don't want to choose the wrong one...

and the one I just switched to - I think it is called Kokish game tries:

1M-2M: +1 bid is asking partner to show his values, new minor bid is shortness and 1♥-2♥-2NT or 1♠-2♠-3♥ is natural, trying to find 4-4 suit to use the other major as a source of discards.

Any of those certainly beats 1M-2M-3M as invitational (and especially with hearts you will find it very useful to bid 3M with weak 6carder as a preempt against 2♠ reopen...

[whereagles]

Mixed trials are a great method on paper. In practice the long suit trial part of the method has the problem of 95% of the partnerships not having discussed seriously what exactly constitutes a "long suit trial bid".

[coyot]

whereagles, on Jul 12 2005, 02:28 PM, said:

Mixed trials are a great method on paper. In practice the long suit trial part of the method has the problem of 95% of the partnerships not having discussed seriously what exactly constitutes a "long suit trial bid".

Yep... there are a lot of nuances that have to be settled...

I.e. is the trial bid to be accepted with bare minimum and values in the requested suit?

Is it to be accepted with maximum and without values in the requested suit?

is J10xx good values?

is singleton and good support good values? (Many pairs permit 1M-2M to have 4card support)

What I find very good about those bids is that you can use them for example with a strong 2suited hand...

Imagine AQxxx - A - AKxxx - Kx ... 1♠-2♠-3♦ is a good way to find about Q of diamonds which may be the only the only card apart from spade king you'll need for the slam...

[luis]

The method I prefer is to use 3x as a short-suit trial asking pd to bid game when he has no wasted values in the suit (or a maximum).
Then 2NT is a general invitation asking pd to go to game with a maximum.

Help trials are usually horrible because they pinpoint the suit to lead. Long trials have the problem of pd not being able to fully evaluate how useful his cards are.

[Double !]

and then one has the old Ewen 2-way game tries which, if I recall correctly were the opposite of what Luis described.

It's important for the partnership to agree on what information a long suit/ help wanted game try is seeking. XXX is very bad, X or XX isn't so good unless you have extra trumps. I've sometimes wondered whether some modified set of responses along the line of the old Roman Asking bids could be adapted for such situations.

Marty Bergen in Better Bidding, referred to using 2Nt as a request for P to show a dbltn.

[coyot]

luis, on Jul 12 2005, 02:46 PM, said:

The method I prefer is to use 3x as a short-suit trial asking pd to bid game when he has no wasted values in the suit (or a maximum).
Then 2NT is a general invitation asking pd to go to game with a maximum.

Help trials are usually horrible because they pinpoint the suit to lead. Long trials have the problem of pd not being able to fully evaluate how useful his cards are.

I'm for the mixed bag - 3x as short suits and 2NT as "bid your values" - because I'd rather find a good 22HCP game (while giving opponents some information) than miss it and make 3+2 on a good lead

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

personally I play help suit, but most of the time we only use 2NT
as a general game try, similar to the old 1M-2M-3M route, the adv.
being, that it reveals a lot less.

With kind regards
Marlowe

PS: Finding "good" games is not the most important things for us, staying
out of bad ones is another matter.

[luke warm]

i've said this before, but i've yet to see any downside to kokish's help/short suit game try.. next suit is help suit, responder bids 1st suit he can, up the line, in which he'd accept a game try... any suit other than the next suit is short suit game try

1h : 2h
2s = long suit game try, responder bids 2nt if he has spades, 3c/d with those or 3h with a hand he wouldn't accept a game try

1h : 2h
2nt = short suit try in spades

1s : 2s
2nt = long suit try.. 3c/d/h are short suit tries

[mike777]

luke warm, on Jul 12 2005, 06:26 PM, said:

i've said this before, but i've yet to see any downside to kokish's help/short suit game try.. next suit is help suit, responder bids 1st suit he can, up the line, in which he'd accept a game try... any suit other than the next suit is short suit game try

1h : 2h
2s = long suit game try, responder bids 2nt if he has spades, 3c/d with those or 3h with a hand he wouldn't accept a game try

1h : 2h
2nt = short suit try in spades

1s : 2s
2nt = long suit try.. 3c/d/h are short suit tries

Yes I play both. Just to confuse you more compare this to Jimmy and other posts.

1h=2h
2nt=long suit game try in spades
3c=long suit game try in clubs\
3d=long suit game try in d

1h=2h
2s=2nt ..(2s forces 2nt)
3c=short suit game try in c
3d=short suit game try in d
3h=short suit game try in s.


1s=2s
2nt=3c....(2nt forces 3c)
3d=short suit game try in C
3h=short suit game try in D
3s=short suit game try in H.

1s=2s
3c=long suit game try in clubs
3d=long suit game try in D
3h=long suit game try in H.

mike

[Winstonm]

Very definately trial bids should be used; I use two-way game tries; an immediate suit bid is a short suit game try, whereas 2N asks partner to bid a suit in which he has help. If partner responds 3C, opener can reask with a 3D bid or if spades are trumps, a 3H bid. The definition we use of help is protection from 3 fast losers in the suit. xx with 4 trumps, x with 3 trumps, or A or K.

And example would be: AKJxxx, xxx, KJ10, A 1S-2S-2N-3C-3H

With Qxx, Axx, xxxx, QJx responder bids 4S with the heart "help".

Short suit game tries, on the other hand, are asking for "filler" cards outside the short suit: Qxxx, QJx, xxx, Qxx would be adequate if over 1S-2S partner made a 3D short suit try. The reason here is that with short suit game tries the theory is that you are not playing in a 40 point deck but instead a 30 point deck. You can afford 2 losers outside the short suit so it takes fewer total high cards in those 3 suits than the standard 25-26. If you hold 22 high cards in the other three suits and a singleton in the fouth suit, the opponents can only cash 3 Aces. (In theory, although other factors are involved. Still the idea of the 30 point deck is sound - but like anything with the risk of a forcing defense, it works better in a 5/4 fit or a 4/4 fit than a 5/3 fit.)

WinstonM

[civill]

[quote name='mike777' date='Jul 12 2005, 06:41 PM'] [quote name='luke warm' date='Jul 12 2005, 06:26 PM']
1h=2h
2nt=long suit game try in spades
3c=long suit game try in clubs\
3d=long suit game try in d

1h=2h
2s=2nt ..(2s forces 2nt)
3c=short suit game try in c
3d=short suit game try in d
3h=short suit game try in s.


1s=2s
2nt=3c....(2nt forces 3c)
3d=short suit game try in C
3h=short suit game try in D
3s=short suit game try in H.

1s=2s
3c=long suit game try in clubs
3d=long suit game try in D
3h=long suit game try in H.

mike [/quote]
Good design,ever seen somewhere.

[Flame]

99% of the players i know play these, its good and simple. Personnaly i dont like them (although i still play them with everyone) because opener is sharing his his hand with the opponents, and second becuse the long trial is not clear enough and partner would be guessing sometimes. (some long suits want partner to be short, some want honor, some want one honor and not the other)
I prefer system where 2nt ask partner about something, like the simple method i play with one partner, 2nt/2s ask for sgl, 3x is natural good suit.

[MickyB]

As has been hinted at, the problem with long suit trials is that a lot of partnerships don't know what holding they use them on. Some use it on xxx or Axx, in which case you are looking for shortage opposite and QTx isn't terribly great; Some on KJxx in which case QTx is gold and a shortage isn't great. Some use it on both, which just sounds ridiculous to me!

A little while back I designed a set of game-tries that tried to keep the info from opps if possible, particularly about declarer's hand. After all, no point in going down one in 4S when without the game-try opps would have let through two overtricks in 2S, or just let through 4S if it had been bid without giving away the info! After 1S:2S, it was something like this...

2N = long suit GT in any suit, looking for honours opposite not shortage. Typical holdings KJxx, QJxx, KQxx. Now 3S rejects any GT, 4S accepts any GT, 3D and 3H reject GTs in the suit below but accept GTs in the other two suits, 3C asks which GT opener has (either will be a hand that only wants to accept one GT, or a hand that would accept a GT in either minor)

3C = 5332 interested in 3NT or singleton club. 3D accepts the former, may wish to play in 3N (rightsided) opposite 5332 and 4S opposite club shortage. 3H accepts the latter only. 3S declines both, 3N accepts both and wants to hog the contract opposite the 5332!

3D = singleton diamond or blocking reraise. 3H shows an acceptance of the GT, 3S a rejection

3H = singleton

3S = General invitation

Which game-tries go through which bids could probably be improved upon, I haven't thought it through too carefully... but I think the general structure is great.

This post has been edited by MickyB: 2005-July-13, 04:33

[kgr]

civill, on Jul 13 2005, 04:23 AM, said:

mike777, on Jul 12 2005, 06:41 PM, said:

luke warm, on Jul 12 2005, 06:26 PM, said:

1h=2h
2nt=long suit game try in spades
3c=long suit game try in clubs\
3d=long suit game try in d

1h=2h
2s=2nt ..(2s forces 2nt)
3c=short suit game try in c
3d=short suit game try in d
3h=short suit game try in s.


1s=2s
2nt=3c....(2nt forces 3c)
3d=short suit game try in C
3h=short suit game try in D
3s=short suit game try in H.

1s=2s
3c=long suit game try in clubs
3d=long suit game try in D
3h=long suit game try in H.

mike

Good design,ever seen somewhere.

I play almost the same, except:
1H-2H-2NT: long suit trial in Clubs
1H-2H-3C: long suit trial in Diamonds
===>
After 1M-2M:
+1: some short suit trial
..responder bids next bid
....and the opener shows short suit: +1 is clubs, +2 is diamonds, +3 is other major.
+2: long suit trial in clubs
+3: long suit trial in diamonds
+4: long suit trial in other major
3M: 6-card, no extra's
<===
This was easiest for us to remember.

- Disadvantage of this system is that you don't have 2NT available as a general trial bid and sometimes with a balanced limit hand you have to 'invent' a suit to do a trial in.
- instead of asking short suit responder can always bid 3M (if he would refuse any trial) or 4M (if he would accept any trial).