[akwoo]

I think without Lebensohl, North's pass is correct, and South should've jumped to 4D.

But this hand basically illustrates how impossible playing without Lebensohl (or something else of that nature) is.

[mikeh]

jillybean, on 2022-October-30, 20:59, said:

Thanks. 3H was perhaps a bad choice, I'm just thinking forward going because I definitely want to be forward going with this hand. With a different hand is 3H completely out of the question, it's 100% forcing and could be an advanced cue in diamonds?

No. It’s natural. Bridge is too tough already: using 3H as either hearts or a cue for diamonds is unplayable. Wtf is advancer supposed to do? He should raise 3H to 4H with as little as xx. Now what?

Doubler wants to set diamonds? Easy enough

3S is forcing and is either about to pass (or raise) 3N or is going to support diamonds, including (on some hands) pulling 3N.

4D also agrees diamonds. What strength it shows is for agreement. For example, in both of my serious partnerships, we cannot play 4m after a double and a constructive 3m bid….with one exception….here (2S) x (p) 3D (p) 3S (p) 4D

3S was potentially hoping for a nine trick game. When advancer denied a stopper, doubler (who already knows that advancer is limited) isn’t forced to bid again.

[helene_t]

mikeh, on 2022-October-30, 20:32, said:

David’s notion (that I appreciate he doesn’t play himself) that 3D is gf is, imo, extraordinarily odd. It may be one of those local quirks that develop in bridge communities where there are a few ‘strong’ players

One would think so but David's club is Crash Leiden which is one of the strongest clubs in the Netherlands.

[ali quarg]

LBengtsson, on 2022-October-30, 21:35, said:

I agree. Jillybean's post says without agreements. I think many players will take 4♦ as forcing. I think the real problem here (now having seen the hand) is what North does next.

The following site summarises Lebhensohl http://kwbridge.com/leb.htm so for me not in play for this hand and different from Larry Cohen take on the subject.
3♦ is constructive
4♦ for me is invitational; I bid what I think makes opposite a minimum X.

[AL78]

LBengtsson, on 2022-October-30, 21:35, said:

I agree. Jillybean's post says without agreements. I think many players will take 4♦ as forcing. I think the real problem here (now having seen the hand) is what North does next.

Would 4NT by North here be to play?

[helene_t]

AL78, on 2022-October-31, 04:21, said:

Would 4NT by North here be to play?

Good question but I think not. If North had a balanced hand with a spade stopper and too strong for a 2NT overcall, they would have slam interest now.

If north has something like Kx-KQxx-Qxx-KJxx, 4NT may be more attractive than 5♦ but it is not obvious, and in any case it would be a narrow set of hands that would bid a natural 4NT.

[jillybean]

AL78, on 2022-October-31, 04:21, said:

Would 4NT by North here be to play?

Yes, since 4♥ is clearly kickback.

[kenberg]

We have now seen all four hands but I opted for 3D before seeing the whole deal and I am still fine with it.

Here is one argument: North has a 16 count with AKQ of diamonds and two scoring side honors. Still, 5D makes, but w/o overtricks. So, looking only at S, 5D seems optimistic. Of course you want to be in NT if this is mps.

Before seeing the hands I looked at my doubleton heart and figured maybe, just maybe, over 3D I will hear 3H from pard, a big hand with hearts. Not to be, but it seemed possible.

So my thinking was: If pard has a big hand with hearts I will hear about it over 3D and if pard has a minimal TO X, maybe 2=4=3=4 with a 14 count, 3D might well be a fine contract.

It is just life that the 3S call causes difficulty. N has more than needed for the X, S has more than needed for the 3D. Hence the usefulness of Leb. As I play Leb, the 3D shows around this strength although of course the length could be less. With diamonds and a weak hand I bid 2NT and then 3D. So yeah, Leb probably gets us to game.

So, with my way of looking at it, who is to blame? Maybe no one, except the partnership for not playing Leb. Perhaps, if I were N, after I doubled and pard bid 3D I would make a game try with 3S. But I have seen all the cards so it's easy to say I would do that.