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fert opening an interssting sequence with a fert pening

#1 User is offline   michel444 

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Posted 2022-September-26, 11:30

I am doing research on defence to fert opening
Forcing Pass system are banned by ACBL not because of the forcing pass opening but because of the fert opening and the artificial limited opening

a Fert opening is a bid that show 0-7 or 0-8 point and is very disturbing for the other side
SOUTH OPEN 1 promising 13 cards and 0-8 HCP
WEST PASS
NORTH bid 2 showing 4+ and another suit 11-17 HCP
EAST PASS
SOUTH BID 2 giving his partner "support" 3+
all PASS
THIS IS A VERY BAD EXAMPLE
but if you look at the diagram you see a good fit in of East-West that they can not bid
Michel
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#2 User is offline   foobar 

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Posted 2022-September-26, 14:24

View Postmichel444, on 2022-September-26, 11:30, said:

but if you look at the diagram you see a good fit in of East-West that they can not bid
Michel


Seems like West can easily pre-balance with 2 with the void, having passed earlier. N/S will probably compete to 3.
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#3 User is offline   michel444 

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Posted 2022-September-26, 14:59

ANOTHER EXAMPLE


THIS IS MORE INTERSTING
North open 1 0-8 HCP AND 13 CARDS
East double 4+ 14+ HPC
SOUTH PASS 3+
WEST PASS 3+ FOR PENALITIE
NORTH bid 2
can not remember how East is suposed to show 4 cards
have to find my note about it
west bid 4
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#4 User is offline   michel444 

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Posted 2022-September-26, 15:04

View Postfoobar, on 2022-September-26, 14:24, said:

Seems like West can easily pre-balance with 2 with the void, having passed earlier. N/S will probably compete to 3.

I had never see someone balancing 2 with a 4 cards suit
I am not teling if its right or wrong ...
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#5 User is offline   foobar 

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Posted 2022-September-26, 18:39

View Postmichel444, on 2022-September-26, 15:04, said:

I had never see someone balancing 2 with a 4 cards suit
I am not teling if its right or wrong ...



Wasn't West 5=0=4=4 in the original problem?


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#6 User is offline   foobar 

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Posted 2022-September-26, 18:44

View Postmichel444, on 2022-September-26, 14:59, said:

ANOTHER EXAMPLE


THIS IS MORE INTERSTING
North open 1 0-8 HCP AND 13 CARDS
East double 4+ 14+ HPC
SOUTH PASS 3+
WEST PASS 3+ FOR PENALITIE
NORTH bid 2
can not remember how East is suposed to show 4 cards
have to find my note about it
west bid 4


What's the problem here? Seems like E/W reached the right game. East can pass over 2, and it should be forcing. Over the reopening X, East can bid 3 to show a flexible hand, and then raise 3 to 4.
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#7 User is offline   Douglas43 

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Posted 2022-September-27, 00:07

As somebody with no intention of playing forcing pass, I am beginning to think that it should be legalised. Mind you, I still think opponents should be allowed to double "pass". Posted Image
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#8 User is offline   michel444 

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Posted 2022-September-27, 00:25

another Example

made a mistake tryibg to put bid in diagram exchanging West and East
East deal and pass
south open a fert 1 promising 13 cards and 0-8 HCP
West PASS
North make a forcing relay with 1 / 18+ HCP ANY SHAPE
East PASS
SOUTH BID 2 / PROMISING 5 + 5-7 (8) HCP
WEST PASS
NORTH bid 4
all PASS
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#9 User is offline   michel444 

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Posted 2022-September-27, 00:40

View PostDouglas43, on 2022-September-27, 00:07, said:

As somebody with no intention of playing forcing pass, I am beginning to think that it should be legalised. Mind you, I still think opponents should be allowed to double "pass". Posted Image

l LOL
I LOOKED a few hour ago on the ACBL regulation
not only FORCINH PASS IS ILEGAL
BUT MOSCITO is not legal too; because it use Transfer opening
MOSCITO opening
1 15+ HCP any shape / 17+ HCP IN chair 3 or 4
1 4+ 9-14 HCP / only in first or second chair
1 4+ 9-14 HCP / only in first or second chair
1 4+9-14 HCP / only in first or second chair
1NT balanced no 5 cards major 11-14 HCP
2 6+ 0-3 / SOME VERSION MAY HAVE A 4 CARDS MAJOR
2 AND ABOVE ARE PRE
4 YEAR AGO WAS A THREAD IN BRIDGE WINNER ABOUT PROPOPSING DEFENSE TO transfer opening



mICHEL
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#10 User is offline   michel444 

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Posted 2022-September-27, 00:42

link
https://bridgewinner...-or-1h-opening/

the Defense comite in ACBL
REJECTED alll proposition of defesibe biding to transfer opening .
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#11 User is offline   dokoko 

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Posted 2022-October-02, 02:48

In your original hand NS missed a 50% game. If A is under the king, 10 tricks are easy. So it's not clear who was preempted.
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#12 User is offline   michel444 

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Posted 2022-October-02, 04:51

View Postmichel444, on 2022-September-26, 11:30, said:

I am doing research on defence to fert opening
Forcing Pass system are banned by ACBL not because of the forcing pass opening but because of the fert opening and the artificial limited opening

a Fert opening is a bid that show 0-7 or 0-8 point and is very disturbing for the other side
SOUTH OPEN 1 promising 13 cards and 0-8 HCP
WEST PASS
NORTH bid 2 showing 4+ and another suit 11-17 HCP
EAST PASS
SOUTH BID 2 giving his partner "support" 3+
all PASS
THIS IS A VERY BAD EXAMPLE
but if you look at the diagram you see a good fit in of East-West that they can not bid
Michel

I think somebody is trying to say this hand have 50% to make game
if south Dont open 1H (fwertil..) and pass west pass and ?
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#13 User is online   pescetom 

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Posted 2022-October-02, 08:26

View Postmichel444, on 2022-October-02, 04:51, said:

I think somebody is trying to say this hand have 50% to make game
if south Dont open 1H (fwertil..) and pass west pass and ?

And NS will bid to some number of H, making 9 tricks. But there would be ten if SA was in West.
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#14 User is offline   michel444 

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Posted 2022-October-02, 09:02

View Postpescetom, on 2022-October-02, 08:26, said:

And NS will bid to some number of H, making 9 tricks. But there would be ten if SA was in West.

ok
and you are going to look for game with 13 HCP oposit opening pass with 7 HPC ?
BTW if you put the Ace of to West hand he will open 1 or 2
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#15 User is offline   nullve 

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Posted 2022-October-02, 09:43

View Postmichel444, on 2022-October-02, 09:10, said:

i just downloaded today Robson Segal book from here http://bridge.mgoetz...obson-segal.pdf

View Postmichel444, on 2022-October-02, 09:02, said:

and you are going to look for game with 13 HCP oposit opening pass with 7 HPC ?

The book explains why. (It has something to do with having 5+5 trumps rather than 13+7 points.)
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#16 User is online   mikeh 

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Posted 2022-October-02, 16:41

Ferts are not banned solely by the ACBL

The WBF doesn’t allow it in world championship events, at least not in the round robin stages

If you can’t play it even then, frankly I don’t see why anyone would want to play it

There aren’t many players with a realistic hope of playing in any real event where it’s permitted, and I’m not saying it’s allowed even in the ko phase of world championships… the few times I’ve reached that stage, none of our opps played ferts so I didn’t have to worry about it
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#17 User is offline   DinDIP 

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Posted 2022-November-05, 01:26

View Postmikeh, on 2022-October-02, 16:41, said:

Ferts are not banned solely by the ACBL

The WBF doesn’t allow it in world championship events, at least not in the round robin stages

If you can’t play it even then, frankly I don’t see why anyone would want to play it

There aren’t many players with a realistic hope of playing in any real event where it’s permitted, and I’m not saying it’s allowed even in the ko phase of world championships… the few times I’ve reached that stage, none of our opps played ferts so I didn’t have to worry about it


Well, one New Zealand pair that proposed playing a forcing pass variant of their system was "encouraged" by John Wignall, the then South Pacific zonal WBF rep (from NZ), not to play such a system in the KO stages. The pair was advised that their submissions to the systems committee (?) would be rejected as incomplete because they did not provide sufficient detail about how they would handle actions by the opponents. The pair offered to remedy any specific deficiencies but was given to understand that there would be nothing they could do in time that would be sufficient. I understand that under the new regime at the WBF things would be handled differently if a pair expressed an intention to play a HUM system in the KO stages.
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#18 User is offline   hrothgar 

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Posted 2022-November-08, 05:51

View PostDinDIP, on 2022-November-05, 01:26, said:

Well, one New Zealand pair that proposed playing a forcing pass variant of their system was "encouraged" by John Wignall, the then South Pacific zonal WBF rep (from NZ), not to play such a system in the KO stages. The pair was advised that their submissions to the systems committee (?) would be rejected as incomplete because they did not provide sufficient detail about how they would handle actions by the opponents. The pair offered to remedy any specific deficiencies but was given to understand that there would be nothing they could do in time that would be sufficient. I understand that under the new regime at the WBF things would be handled differently if a pair expressed an intention to play a HUM system in the KO stages.



John Wignall has been responsible for a bunch of shady stuff over the years.

I'm surprised he hasn't moved to the US.
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