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Bid this freak

#1 User is offline   mikeh 

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Posted 2022-April-25, 19:34




1D promised an unbalanced hand, either a 6 card suit (can be 6322) or 5422 or more unbalanced and can be 4 cards only if 1444/4144/4441 or 1345/3145 weak clubs, strong diamonds.partner will open all 11 counts.

2H was a weak jump overcall. Your 3C was essentially game forcing, although in theory one could stop in 4C.

The double of 4H simply said he didn’t like his hand for clubs (and wasn’t stiff or void in hearts). It wasn’t ‘penalty’ as such but there’s some expectation I may pass unless I have a reason to bid.

Well, you definitely appear to have a reason to bid.

You’re playing imps with and against experts.

Your call, and why?
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#2 User is offline   mw64ahw 

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Posted 2022-April-26, 00:19

Here goes in the expert section with non-expert knowledge, but it looks like a slam is there, but what strain?

The 4 bid by West suggests North has 3 with the X suggesting short .

So we have North being 3+361- or 4351 or x37+1-

A slam looks most likely, but with a self-sustaining suit this must also be on the cards. If North has a self-sustaining suit then this is another possibility.

5NT pick a a slam.
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#3 User is offline   mikeh 

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Posted 2022-April-26, 00:27

View Postmw64ahw, on 2022-April-26, 00:19, said:

Here goes in the expert section with non-expert knowledge, but it looks like a slam is there, but what strain?

The 4 bid by West suggests North has 3 with the X suggesting short .

So we have North being 3+361- or 4351 or x37+1-

A slam looks most likely, but with a self-sustaining suit this must also be on the cards. If North has a self-sustaining suit then this is another possibility.

5NT pick a a slam.

5N would be pick a slam, I suppose, but it doesn’t (to me) imply spades. I’d think 4=7 minors or so.
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#4 User is offline   mw64ahw 

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Posted 2022-April-26, 00:44

View Postmikeh, on 2022-April-26, 00:27, said:

5N would be pick a slam, I suppose, but it doesn't (to me) imply spades. I'd think 4=7 minors or so.

Why not bid the slam slam directly with 4 especially playing without the tools at club level?



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#5 User is online   paulg 

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Posted 2022-April-26, 01:28

I think 6 is the practical bid but 5 is probably the expert bid. Given that partner has denied reasonable club support and has not promised spades, I should probably have a hand like this.

Of course it is a lot easier to say this from my perspective, it may be less clear to partner. A really good partner will be able to cue bid 6 with spade support to allow us to bid the grand slam, but this is optimistic when I have such good spades.
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#6 User is offline   DavidKok 

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Posted 2022-April-26, 01:53

I want to get my second suit in. Without discussion, let's go through the likely meaning of every bid:
  • Pass - I am happy to defend now that you've doubled.
  • 4 - NF, playing to make, most likely 4 spades, 6(+) clubs, short hearts and a diamond tolerance. Though it sounds like partner would have doubled with e.g. 3=4=5=1 (and we've caught the opponents speeding), but I don't think 4 should promise 5 just to cater to that.
  • 4NT - ambiguous, probably long clubs and diamond support, maybe something like 3=1=3=6 or 2=2=3=6.
  • 5 - to play, long clubs
  • 5 - to play, exactly 5 clubs(?) and 4 diamonds (but why not pass, or bid 4 on the last round?). A strange bid, but one thing is for sure: partner won't think it's forward-going.
  • 5 - generic slam force, partner should pattern out (5 showing 4, 6 showing 4, 5NT showing a heart stopper and neither of the above, 6 either a default bid without a heart stopper or with unexpected diamond strength/length).
  • 5 - slam force with long spades, probably 56. Might be taken as a probe for 7.
  • 5NT - pick-a-slam, usually exactly 4 spades (or willingness to play 6NT if partner shows spades) and tolerance for diamonds.
  • 6 - to play.
  • 6 - to play.
  • 6 - void-showing slam try for 7m, the signoff is 6NT.
  • 6 - does not exist, bypassing 6 with an extreme black two-suiter is crazy.
  • 6NT - to play but should probably not exist, we have all these slower routes to get to 6NT.
So based on the above I think this hand should bid 5, but I wouldn't fault 5 either. I dislike 5 because we are still stuck for a bid over the likely 5NT or 6 response, and with 5 we at least communicate our extreme shape. I have no idea how we can sensibly get to 7, but maybe partner will recognise that Q, A and Q are worth their weight in gold and cue-bid 5NT (positive with clubs) or 6 (confirming spades, first round diamond control).
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#7 User is offline   mw64ahw 

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Posted 2022-April-26, 02:45

Good summary
Like you I was wondering what 4NT would be, but probably wouldn't bid 4 with only 4 except if I played Majors first and bid 2 rather than 3 as the initial response and even then I may X 2
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#8 User is offline   nige1 

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Posted 2022-April-26, 06:32

Mikeh '1D promised an unbalanced hand, either a 6 card suit (can be 6322) or 5422 or more unbalanced and can be 4 cards only if 1444/4144/4441 or 1345/3145 weak clubs, strong diamonds, partner will open all 11 counts.2H was a weak jump overcall. Your 3C was essentially game forcing, although in theory one could stop in 4C. The double of 4H simply said he didn't like his hand for clubs (and wasn't stiff or void in hearts). It wasn't 'penalty' as such but there's some expectation I may pass unless I have a reason to bid. Well, you definitely appear to have a reason to bid. You're playing imps with and against experts. Your call, and why?
++++++++++++
Hard problem with scope for confusion. In such high-level competitive contexts, DAvid Kok is right that we should try to agree general principles. e.g.
5N = pick a slam.
4N = 2 places to play. often minor orientated.
Major cue = suggests/other major.
Any agreement is better than none.

Handicapped by a dearth of such understandings, I rank...
1. 6. Paul's practical pursuit of the plus score.
2. 5 Paul's alternative: an unambiguous black 2 suiter suggestion.
3. 5 to suggest but partner might not judge Qxx to be adequate support.
4. 4N might be OK if you can persuade partner that your other suit is .
4. 5N to suggest 2 places to play. Correct the likely 6 to 6, but 6 might be too high.
5. 6 a good hand but woolly and optimistic.

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#9 User is online   mycroft 

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Posted 2022-April-26, 09:05

I'm guessing 5. Having said that, I would likely have double-and-bid-clubs instead - wouldn't that show strong playing hand, spades and longer clubs? Maybe only 4, but what auction in the OP might not be 4 spades and longer clubs?
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#10 User is offline   mikeh 

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Posted 2022-April-26, 11:26

View Postmycroft, on 2022-April-26, 09:05, said:

I'm guessing 5. Having said that, I would likely have double-and-bid-clubs instead - wouldn't that show strong playing hand, spades and longer clubs? Maybe only 4, but what auction in the OP might not be 4 spades and longer clubs?

No, at least not as I learned to bid. For me, double then clubs (assuming level permitted) is 4 spades,6+ clubs and less than game values.

It’s important, imo, to bid naturally with good hands. Bidding clubs then spades shows gf values with 4+ spades and longer clubs. You certainly have that.the questions include: is 4S forcing? If it is, then 4S is a good bid here.

But how would you bid AKxxx x x AKxxxx? To me this is an easy 3C then 4S, as indeed would be AJxxx x x AQJxxx, so can 4S realistically be forcing?

Indeed, might you not hold AJxx x Kx AQxxxx?

And so on.
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#11 User is offline   LBengtsson 

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Posted 2022-April-27, 06:35

The first bid that came to me is 5 without looking at the replies. So we might miss a grand... But I assume that as the players are expert the opps. interference bidding will be the same, so both tables will be in this dilemma.

Yes, we might lose 11 IMPs if we do not bid the grand, but we gain 14 IMPs if we bid the small slam and the grand goes down. But the opps. have taken away our space for investigation so any plus score is better than no plus score. 5 it is.
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#12 User is offline   mikeh 

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Posted 2022-April-27, 12:03

View PostLBengtsson, on 2022-April-27, 06:35, said:

The first bid that came to me is 5 without looking at the replies. So we might miss a grand... But I assume that as the players are expert the opps. interference bidding will be the same, so both tables will be in this dilemma.

Yes, we might lose 11 IMPs if we do not bid the grand, but we gain 14 IMPs if we bid the small slam and the grand goes down. But the opps. have taken away our space for investigation so any plus score is better than no plus score. 5 it is.

Provided partner is on the same wavelength, you really should never miss 7S when it’s a good contract.

If he has, say, Qxxx Kxx AQxxx x, which is a minimum opening hand with heart wastage, he knows you are on a huge black two suiter and it would be criminal not to bid 6D.
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#13 User is offline   eagles123 

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Posted 2022-April-27, 15:48

It's a bit conservative, but I would just bid 4S. Of course it's very easy to construct a hand for partner where we make a (grand) slam and they can't move, but equally forcing it to slam could easily be too much, and 4S has to show something pretty reasonable. Think it's basically a guess between taking the conservative view and ramming it into slam ... interesting hand.
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#14 User is online   nullve 

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Posted 2022-April-27, 16:14

4N

Far too good for 4. Can't think of a really good reason to make a more space-consuming bid like 5, 5, 5N, 6 or 6.
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#15 User is offline   mikeh 

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Posted 2022-April-27, 16:30

View Postnullve, on 2022-April-27, 16:14, said:

4N

Far too good for 4. Can't think of a really good reason to make a more space-consuming bid like 5, 5, 5N, 6 or 6.

I can’t think of a reason to bid 4N. Even if I bid it, I wouldn’t know what it meant….although I suspect 1=1=4=7. It definitely doesn’t imply AKJxx in spades, as far as I know.
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#16 User is offline   mikeh 

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Posted 2022-April-27, 16:32

View Posteagles123, on 2022-April-27, 15:48, said:

It's a bit conservative, but I would just bid 4S. Of course it's very easy to construct a hand for partner where we make a (grand) slam and they can't move, but equally forcing it to slam could easily be too much, and 4S has to show something pretty reasonable. Think it's basically a guess between taking the conservative view and ramming it into slam ... interesting hand.

Given that If he has Qxxx xxx xxxxxx x we’re almost cold for 6S, and he did open, I think 4S is a bit on the wimpish side
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#17 User is online   nullve 

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Posted 2022-April-27, 16:36

View Postmikeh, on 2022-April-27, 16:30, said:

I can’t think of a reason to bid 4N. Even if I bid it, I wouldn’t know what it meant….although I suspect 1=1=4=7. It definitely doesn’t imply AKJxx in spades, as far as I know.

Ok, it was a mistake to respond, as usual.
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#18 User is offline   mikeh 

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Posted 2022-April-27, 18:46

View Postnullve, on 2022-April-27, 16:36, said:

Ok, it was a mistake to respond, as usual.

Whether it was a mistake is for you to decide. However, if you’re going to suggest 4N the least you could do is to explain how you think that will help. What does it mean for you? What do you think partner will think it means?

Imagine being in a bar with friends and fellow players, after a session. This hand comes up for discussion and you volunteer that you see reason to bid anything other than 4N.

Wtf do you think the other players, especially the good ones, will say or ask?

Maybe you do have a reason for 4N of which I’m unaware. If so, and if it makes sense, I’d be delighted to read about it.

On the other hand, if you don’t have any reasonable basis for the suggestion, then it was indeed a mistake.
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#19 User is offline   kgr 

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Posted 2022-April-29, 06:10

5 for me, I think it describes your hand better than 6
For 5NT I would want another .
and 4NT could be to play, e.g: Kxx=A=x=AKQJxxx ?
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#20 User is offline   fuzzyquack 

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Posted 2022-May-17, 05:58

I may face a different problem since I start with 2S
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