[helene_t]

After
2♦-2♠

I would like to cater to responder having
- an invite opposite hearts
- a barage opposite hearts
- a weak hand with long clubs and short hearts
- a constructive hand with long spades and short hearts (could a.o. be 5-5 blacks invitational)

So what about these follow ups:
2NT: ostensibly hearts with no spade support
-- 3♣ sign off, could be 5-5 blacks, or just clubs
3♣: hearts with spade support


After either rebid, responder can now bid a.o.
-- 3♦: invite, ostensibly with hearts as trump
-- 3♥: sign off

Is this a good idea/?

[Cyberyeti]

What's in your multi ?

[helene_t]

Cyberyeti, on 2022-January-25, 13:31, said:

What's in your multi ?

Maybe GF hands with primarily diamonds? I don't think it matters so much as long as the strong variants are not awfully frequent (they will obviously be a bit constrained as they can't rebid 3♣, and rebidning 2NT with some strong hands also would make things complicated)
I assume that the weak variant is always a 6-card suit, if opener would have to distinguish between 5- and 6-card hearts it wouldn't work.

[Cyberyeti]

helene_t, on 2022-January-25, 13:39, said:

Maybe GF hands with primarily diamonds? I don't think it matters so much as long as the strong variants are not awfully frequent (they will obviously be a bit constrained as they can't rebid 3♣, and rebidning 2NT with some strong hands also would make things complicated)
I assume that the weak variant is always a 6-card suit, if opener would have to distinguish between 5- and 6-card hearts it wouldn't work.

I asked the question because I needed to know which bids are unavailable over 2♠ to cover for the strong options, also what do you put in 2♠ (2♠ was either short or very long for us, and we had 3N as 4-4 majors with values to raise the big bal to 3N when we played it)

[nullve]

helene_t, on 2022-January-25, 13:24, said:

- a weak hand with long clubs and short hearts

Why?

[DavidKok]

If your multi 2♦ is anything like "a weak major suit or a host of strong options", opener's hand is much more narrowly defined than responders. So it makes sense to have responder be captain of the auction, and for opener to describe their hand so that responder can place the contract. 2♠ traditionally shows "pass or correct" and a willingness to play hearts at the 3-level or higher, but a desire to sign off opposite weak spades. Instead of focusing on responder's hand types I would make sure to accurately define opener's hand types with the bids pass through 3♥.

[helene_t]

Cyberyeti, on 2022-January-25, 14:04, said:

I asked the question because I needed to know which bids are unavailable over 2♠ to cover for the strong options, also what do you put in 2♠ (2♠ was either short or very long for us, and we had 3N as 4-4 majors with values to raise the big bal to 3N when we played it)

After a 2♥ response, all rebids (at least up to 3NT) would show some strong hand so that we now need 3♣ (and partially 2NT) makes it a bit cramped.

Maybe this scheme only works well for weak-only multi. Or we could say that we don't need to worry about opener having a strong hand with a 5-card major, as they can assume that responder will have 3+ hearts and 2- spades.

The 2♠ response covers normal paradox response hands. Also hands with long clubs and very short hearts, but maybe we should get rid of those to simplify things (unless we play weak-only multi). Also constructive hands with long spades but those are probably unlikely enough if opener has a strong hand that we don't need to worry about them.

[helene_t]

nullve, on 2022-January-25, 15:04, said:

Why?

I thought it would be cute no be able to stop in 3♣ if responder has 7 clubs and void in hearts. But maybe it causes too many problems if we have strong variants in the multi.

[Cyberyeti]

helene_t, on 2022-January-26, 03:58, said:

After a 2♥ response, all rebids (at least up to 4♠ or so) would show some strong hand so that we now need 3♣ (and partially 2NT) makes it a bit cramped.

I presume you mean all rebids except 2♠

Quote

Maybe this scheme only works well for weak-only multi. Or we could say that we don't need to worry about opener having a 5-card major, as they can assume that responder will have 3+ hearts and 2- spades.

The 2♠ response covers normal paradox response hands. Also hands with long clubs and very short hearts, but maybe we should get rid of those to simplify things (unless we play weak-only multi). Also constructive hands with long spades but those are probably unlikely enough if opener has a strong hand that we don't need to worry about them.

2♠ for most people says I want to play 2♠ if you are weak in spades or more hearts if you have hearts. It's a matter of agreement if you do this on 13?? garbage or it's always somewhat constructive or a bigger fit. This matters in that opener can bid 4♥ some of the time, and also if you're guaranteeing enough to be in game over some of the strong options.

How do you use 3M directly over the multi ?

[helene_t]

Cyberyeti, on 2022-January-26, 04:12, said:

I presume you mean all rebids except 2♠

2♠ for most people says I want to play 2♠ if you are weak in spades or more hearts if you have hearts. It's a matter of agreement if you do this on 13?? garbage or it's always somewhat constructive or a bigger fit. This matters in that opener can bid 4♥ some of the time, and also if you're guaranteeing enough to be in game over some of the strong options.

How do you use 3M directly over the multi ?

Yes, except 2♠

I don't think it is a good idea to rebid 3/4♥ with weak hands with hearts. For one thing it would be nice for responder to make a more subtle game try than just asking for min/max, and to rightside a hearts contract. But also, if responder promises constructive values, I wouldn't worry too much about opener having a strong hand.

The 3♥ response should be P/C but 3♠ I am not sure about. How do you play it?

[DavidKok]

helene_t, on 2022-January-26, 04:09, said:

I thought it would be cute no be able to stop in 3♣ if responder has 7 clubs and void in hearts. But maybe it causes too many problems if we have strong variants in the multi.

Can you do this over a weak 2 in hearts or spades? Multi loses some definition to standard weak two's (although they can be combined if you wish), so trying to fit more options in there is very ambitious.

helene_t, on 2022-January-26, 04:36, said:

I don't think it is a good idea to rebid 3/4♥ with weak hands with hearts. For one thing it would be nice for responder to make a more subtle game try than just asking for min/max, and to rightside a hearts contract. But also, if responder promises constructive values, I wouldn't worry too much about opener having a strong hand.

The 3♥ response should be P/C but 3♠ I am not sure about. How do you play it?

I know some people use 3♣ over 2♠ to show weak hearts, or 3♣ and 3red (your choice) to distinguish minimum and maximum with weak hearts. The auction 2♦*-3♠ is by necessity rare because responder could have started with 2NT and needs to cater to a weak hand with hearts, so I think this usually just shows a pass/correct hand with both majors but willingness to play 4♥ (but not 4♠).
The biggest downside of the multi is that it can take more than one round to raise it. I don't know of any genius scheme to fix this.

[Cyberyeti]

helene_t, on 2022-January-26, 04:36, said:

Yes, except 2♠

I don't think it is a good idea to rebid 3/4♥ with weak hands with hearts. For one thing it would be nice for responder to make a more subtle game try than just asking for min/max, and to rightside a hearts contract. But also, if responder promises constructive values, I wouldn't worry too much about opener having a strong hand.

The 3♥ response should be P/C but 3♠ I am not sure about. How do you play it?

We used 3♠ as a hand that wants to play 3♠ or 4♥ 34 or 35 in the majors without values for game in a 6-3 spade fit. (I don't play a multi any more, but did for a long time)

4♥ is not a routine bid over 2♠, but there are some hands that opener might decide it's a good idea (particularly where you opt to open a weak 2 with a bad 7 card suit)

We didn't play strong 2 in the minors in our multi so didn't have a problem with 2♦-2♠-3♣ as a heart hand.

My comment was not particularly about full "constructive" values, just whether it promised enough that if say 20-21 bal was in your multi, you were prepared to commit to game opposite that.

[aawk]

2♦ =

A) weak 6 card major
B) strong nt 22-23 HCP (or any other range you agree on)

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
2♦- 2♥ = non forcing for a 6 card ♥ and non forcing or invite or better for 6 card ♠ (less than 15 HCP)

2♦- 2♥ - 2♠ - ?

pass to play
3♠ invite
4♠ to play

2♦ - 2♥ - 2nt - ? (bid same as after a strong 2nt openings bid)

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
2♦ - 2♠ = non forcing for a 6 card ♠ invite or better for 6 card ♥ (less than 15 HCP)

2♦ - 2♠ - 2nt - ? (bid same as after a strong 2nt openings bid)

2♦ - 2♠ - 3♥ = minimum 6 card h

2♦ - 2♠ - 4♥ = maximum 6 card h

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
2♦ - 2nt = round forcing 15+ HCP

2♦ - 2nt - 3♣ = minimum 6 card ♥

2♦ - 2nt - 3♦ = minimum 6 card ♠

2♦ - 2nt - 3♥ = maximum 6 card ♥

2♦ - 2nt - 3♠ = maximum 6 card ♠


2♦ - 2nt - 3♣ - 3/4♥ = to play
2♦ - 2nt - 3♣ - 3nt = to play
2♦ - 2nt - 3♣ - 3♠/4♣/4♦ = cue bid for ♥
2♦ - 2nt - 3♣ - 4nt = asking aces (no ♥ fit needed)

2♦ - 2nt - 3♦ - 3/4♠ = to play
2♦ - 2nt - 3♦ - 3nt = to play
2♦ - 2nt - 3♦ - 4♣/4♦/4♥ = cue bid for ♠
2♦ - 2nt - 3♦ - 4nt = asking aces (no ♠ fit needed)

2♦ - 2nt - 3♥ - 3nt = to play
2♦ - 2nt - 3♥ - 4♥ = to play
2♦ - 2nt - 3♥ - 3♠/4♣/4♦ = cue bid for ♥
2♦ - 2nt - 3♥ - 4nt = asking aces (no ♥ fit needed)

2♦ - 2nt - 3♠ - 3nt = to play
2♦ - 2nt - 3♠ - 4♠ = to play
2♦ - 2nt - 3♠ - 4♣/4♦/4♥ = cue bid for ♠
2♦ - 2nt - 3♠ - 4nt = asking aces (no ♠ fit needed)

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
2♦ - 3♣ = to play 7+ card ♣ rather 3♣ than 2♥/♠ (or any other agreement)

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
2♦ - 3♦ = to play 7+ card ♦ rather 3♦ than 2♥/♠ (or any other agreement)

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
2♦ - 3♥ = invite for 6 card ♥ and invite or better for 6 card ♠ (3-15 HCP)

2♦ - 3♥ - pass = to play 6 card ♥ minimum
2♦ - 3♥ - 3♠ = 6 card ♠ minimum
2♦ - 3♥ - 3nt = strong nt
2♦ - 3♥ - 4♥ = 6 card ♥ maximum
2♦ - 3♥ - 4♠ = 6 card ♠ maximum

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
2♦ - 3♠ - invite for 6 card ♠ and game forcing for 6 card ♥ (3-15 HCP)

2♦ - 3♠ - pass = to play 6 card ♠ minimum
2♦ - 3♠ - 3nt = strong nt
2♦ - 3♠ - 4♥ = 6 card ♥
2♦ - 3♠ - 4♠ = 6 card ♠ maximum

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
on agreement

2♦ - 3nt = to play 17+ HCP

2♦ - 4♣ = barrage asking for transfer 6 card or 4nt if strong nt (5-15 HCP)

2♦ - 4♦ = barrage asking for 6 card or 4nt if strong nt (5-15 HCP)

2♦ - 4♥ = to play 6+ card ♥ or slam forcing opposite strong nt

2♦ - 4♠ = to play 6+ card ♠ or slam forcing opposite strong nt

2♦ - 4nt = asking aces

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

If played in combination with the loosing trick count a 6 card shows 8 LTC or better and a invite therefore done with 7 LTC etc.

[helene_t]

Cyberyeti, on 2022-January-26, 05:24, said:

My comment was not particularly about full "constructive" values, just whether it promised enough that if say 20-21 bal was in your multi, you were prepared to commit to game opposite that.

Ah right, that makes sense.

If you have a hand that is so weak that you don't want to be in game opposite any strong variant, partner is quite likely to have a strong hand so it's better not to try to be awkward.

[kreivi68]

This is something that my friends play. Multi 2♦ contains either weak two, big balanced or GF with diamonds.
Opener bids after 2♦-2♠:

Pass= spades
2NT= big balanced
3♣= hearts
3♦= 6+♦, GF
3♥/♠= a four-card major, longer diamonds, GF
3NT/4♣= diamonds and clubs, GF

After opener's 3♣:

Pass= long clubs
3♦= heart invite
3♥= signoff
3♠= 6+♠, GF (constructive if you wish)
3NT= 5♠, CoG
4♣/♦= 5-5+ in spades and a minor, GF

[slothy]

Just to answer the question about what to bid over 2♦ 2♠.

In the version of Multi I play responder ALWAYS bids his shorter major. So with a 2♠ response one assumes he has !H tolerance. (it could be that has has 1♠ and 2♥ at worse, but there are other bids in the arsenal when one has NO TOLERANCE for EITHER MAJOR and one wants to play in one's own minor. But this is another post ).

Now as opener, where one can have 5-6 up to 10 we want to show a variety of hands. Just because partner has not made a forcing 2N bid, 4♥ can be laydown, or with good odds, opposite some 13-14 points that have to start with a 2♠ response, and these hand types are shown in opener's 2nd round bids.

3♦ is a transfer back to !H. You are minimum and have nothing to show. Game is very unlikely in fact most certainly. Kx QJxxxx xx Jxx. But at least you know p has ♥ with you and opps have a ♠ fit.

3♣ is a max multi in ♥ with points concentrated in trumps. Something like xx AKJxxx Jxx xx. Partner with Ax Qxxx AQxxx x can take a stab at 4♥

3♥ is a good multi in ♥ but one does NOT have semi-solid ♥ but good tenaces and controls elsewhere. ( now there is no real advantage for p to be declarer as YOU are the one wanting to protect YOUR tenaces not necessarily his.

Something like xx QT98xx AT9 Kx. Partner may have good trumps and scattered values and raise you to game.

It has imploded on occasion ( 2-3 times ) but %age wise we have bid some games others missed playing conventional multi or weak 2s and if one is a multi afficionado it is more subtle than a simple retreat back to ♥ where the potential advantage of p being declarer is lost AND you have the avantage o being declarer whhere you want the lead up to YOU.

[nullve]

helene_t, on 2022-January-26, 04:09, said:

I thought it would be cute no be able to stop in 3♣ if responder has 7 clubs and void in hearts. But maybe it causes too many problems if we have strong variants in the multi.

Or maybe you could put this hand type in 2N instead and play something like

2♦-2N; ?:

3♣ = 6(+) H, not MAX if 3+ C
...P = the weak hand with long clubs and short hearts
...3♦ = GF relay
...3♥ = INV
...(...)
3♦ = 6(+) S, not MAX if 3+ C [very unlikely hand type opposite the hand with long clubs and short hearts]
...3♥ = GF relay
...3♠ = INV
...(...)
3M = MAX, 6(+)OM3+C, F4♣ [superaccept opposite the weak hand with long clubs and short hearts]

?

[helene_t]

nullve, on 2022-January-26, 09:18, said:

Or maybe you could put this hand type in 2N instead and play something like

2♦-2N; ?:

3♣ = 6(+) H, not MAX if 3+ C

Yes that's a good idea. Or maybe just 3♣ with any hand with hearts, then we always stop in 3♣ when reponder has short hearts, and if responder has a weak hand with short hearts and opener has spades, we don't have to worry so much that responder is 1147 or so because opps would have bid hearts in the meantime.