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How do I make a game force support in partner's suit?

#1 User is offline   mikl_plkcc 

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Posted 2021-October-07, 06:38

After 1 - 1, I hold a maximum and want to make a forcing bid holding 5 and 4 . What should I bid in Standard American? Should I just sign off at 4?
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#2 User is offline   Winstonm 

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Posted 2021-October-07, 07:26

4S is not a “sign off” but a strength-showing bid. SA is not a system based on subtleties.
"Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." Black Lives Matter.
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#3 User is offline   Gilithin 

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Posted 2021-October-07, 07:27

View Postmikl_plkcc, on 2021-October-07, 06:38, said:

After 1 - 1, I hold a maximum and want to make a forcing bid holding 5 and 4 . What should I bid in Standard American? Should I just sign off at 4?

The foundation for your question is fatally flawed - 4 is not a sign off.
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#4 User is offline   Stephen Tu 

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Posted 2021-October-07, 07:49

With a GF you can bid 4S or splinter with 4c/4d. Game bids are never sign-offs when partner has not limited their strength.
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#5 User is offline   fromageGB 

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Posted 2021-October-07, 07:55

Presumably by maximum, you mean "not good enough to make an immediate ace ask" but good enough for game opposite a 6 count? While 4 could express that, it is not a signoff because partner with a stronger hand, say 10+, would be entitled to go further.

That of course will commit to at least 5, so I reckon most regular partnerships would be able to show a strong hand in some other way with a conventional bid and keep the bidding lower. As far as I know SA is not prohibitive of that, and a Gazzilli 2 may be worth ad(a/o)pting if you have no short minor to splinter.
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#6 User is offline   P_Marlowe 

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Posted 2021-October-07, 08:30

A common agreement is to use a 3NT response by opener as showing a semibal. gf
raise of partners major.
Having a forcing raise for responders major is useful, if you need to start a cue bidding
seq. to find out, if you control all suits.

The standard meaning of 3NT was long running suit, with shortage in partners suit.
Obviously this type would need now a different seq. to be shown.

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Marlowe
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Uwe Gebhardt (P_Marlowe)
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#7 User is offline   Douglas43 

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Posted 2021-October-08, 03:28

I play Acol, but similar principles apply.
Bidding 4 shows a hand about two tricks better than a minimum opening. You have already shown a decent hand by opening 1, so 4 here is a strong bid, not a shut-out or a pre-empt like 1 - 4
In a regular partnership with a 4-5-3-1 shape I would bid 4 or 4 as a splinter. But I might not risk it in a social game because some players use 4 as Gerber at unexpected times
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#8 User is offline   mikl_plkcc 

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Posted 2021-October-08, 15:05

View PostfromageGB, on 2021-October-07, 07:55, said:

Presumably by maximum, you mean "not good enough to make an immediate ace ask" but good enough for game opposite a 6 count? While 4 could express that, it is not a signoff because partner with a stronger hand, say 10+, would be entitled to go further.

That of course will commit to at least 5, so I reckon most regular partnerships would be able to show a strong hand in some other way with a conventional bid and keep the bidding lower. As far as I know SA is not prohibitive of that, and a Gazzilli 2 may be worth ad(a/o)pting if you have no short minor to splinter.

Here means I have slam interest even if partner is a minimum, and I don't want the bidding to die at 4-level. I just want a forcing bid to set trumps such that I can start cuebidding in the next round.
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#9 User is offline   DavidKok 

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Posted 2021-October-08, 15:26

Some people use Gazzilli on this auction. In a natural system you have splinters and 4, and some people also would assume 3NT is artificial. You can also bid a fake 3 as a GF, but this may backfire spectacularly. Other than that there are no good options.
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#10 User is offline   Gilithin 

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Posted 2021-October-08, 15:36

View Postmikl_plkcc, on 2021-October-08, 15:05, said:

Here means I have slam interest even if partner is a minimum, and I don't want the bidding to die at 4-level. I just want a forcing bid to set trumps such that I can start cuebidding in the next round.

Can you construct the hand that wants to do this opposite a 1 response that does not have a minor-suit shortage and would not have opened 2? I am sure we can come up with a solution if we see the problem.
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#11 User is offline   DavidKok 

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Posted 2021-October-08, 15:44

View PostGilithin, on 2021-October-08, 15:36, said:

Can you construct the hand that wants to do this opposite a 1 response that does not have a minor-suit shortage and would not have opened 2? I am sure we can come up with a solution if we see the problem.
KJTx, AKJTx, Ax, Kx. I am extremely tempted to swap a small spade for the queen in this example, but I am worried about getting stuck debating the merits of the auction 2*-2*; 2-2NT/3*; 3.
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#12 User is offline   Douglas43 

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Posted 2021-October-09, 00:50

View PostDavidKok, on 2021-October-08, 15:44, said:

KJTx, AKJTx, Ax, Kx. I am extremely tempted to swap a small spade for the queen in this example, but I am worried about getting stuck debating the merits of the auction 2*-2*; 2-2NT/3*; 3.


I would settle for 4 on that, as AQxx and out is enough for game, but needs plenty of work for slam? If 4=5=2=2 got above 20hcp, I might open 2NT.
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#13 User is offline   Gilithin 

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Posted 2021-October-09, 08:36

View PostDavidKok, on 2021-October-08, 15:44, said:

KJTx, AKJTx, Ax, Kx. I am extremely tempted to swap a small spade for the queen in this example, but I am worried about getting stuck debating the merits of the auction 2*-2*; 2-2NT/3*; 3.

And presumably the hand opposite is AQxxx Qx xxx Qxx? Let's take Marlowe's suggestion of 3NT as a forcing raise for a moment. How do you see the auction progressing after that if you think this hand is not worth moving beyond 4 opposite a GF raise?
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#14 User is offline   Douglas43 

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Posted 2021-October-09, 08:50

This was a question about Standard American. Isn't 3NT just a strong balanced hand in StanAm?
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#15 User is offline   DavidKok 

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Posted 2021-October-09, 11:12

There are plenty of solutions. Personally I play Gazzilli on this auction, which covers quite a few bases. I'm sure you have your own solutions and explanations of how good they are. My point was that in Standard American it is completely possible to get stuck. There are also 4=5=3=1 hands with singleton honour that are best served not splintering, for example.

Gilithin, I don't understand your question. I don't have a followup over 3NT artificial, I don't play it and I think it is sub-optimal. But someone playing SAYC might get some use out of that gadget. If you find a continuation please let me know.
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#16 User is offline   P_Marlowe 

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Posted 2021-October-09, 11:31

View PostGilithin, on 2021-October-09, 08:36, said:

And presumably the hand opposite is AQxxx Qx xxx Qxx? Let's take Marlowe's suggestion of 3NT as a forcing raise for a moment. How do you see the auction progressing after that if you think this hand is not worth moving beyond 4 opposite a GF raise?

You could make a 4H cue bid, assuming your first cue promises a top honor.
The Queen is not a top honor, but you know that partner has 5 hearts. i.e. the Queen will fill a hole.
The cue also denies top honors in clubs / diamonds, opener will have an easy stop in 4S, knowing the
partnership misses two Aces.

With kind regards
Marlowe
With kind regards
Uwe Gebhardt (P_Marlowe)
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#17 User is offline   Gilithin 

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Posted 2021-October-09, 12:40

View PostDouglas43, on 2021-October-09, 08:50, said:

This was a question about Standard American. Isn't 3NT just a strong balanced hand in StanAm?

SA is not really a system so much as a family of methods. For the most part though, 1NT shows 12-14 and 2NT shows 18-19, leaving 3NT available for something else, usually a 1-suiter of some type.


View PostDavidKok, on 2021-October-09, 11:12, said:

There are plenty of solutions. Personally I play Gazzilli on this auction, which covers quite a few bases. I'm sure you have your own solutions and explanations of how good they are. My point was that in Standard American it is completely possible to get stuck. There are also 4=5=3=1 hands with singleton honour that are best served not splintering, for example.

Gilithin, I don't understand your question. I don't have a followup over 3NT artificial, I don't play it and I think it is sub-optimal. But someone playing SAYC might get some use out of that gadget. If you find a continuation please let me know.

The point I was making is that the gap between responding hands that would not make a move over 4 but would be able to provide some critical piece of information over some forcing raise is very small, much smaller than many other slam gaps in natural methods. And if you use some other sequence to cover this, you will make some other gap somewhere else wider if the bidding system is at all efficient. Of course the easy solution to most questions on making slam bidding more effective is to open 1. I can give you a dozen solutions from there.


View PostP_Marlowe, on 2021-October-09, 11:31, said:

You could make a 4H cue bid, assuming your first cue promises a top honor.
The Queen is not a top honor, but you know that partner has 5 hearts. i.e. the Queen will fill a hole.
The cue also denies top honors in clubs / diamonds, opener will have an easy stop in 4S, knowing the
partnership misses two Aces.

With kind regards
Marlowe

For the vast majority of American pairs, control cue bids of this nature show first or second round control. It would after all be quite embarrassing to find that Opener held KJxx JT9xx AK AK and reach 6 missing AK...
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#18 User is offline   P_Marlowe 

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Posted 2021-October-10, 00:15

View PostGilithin, on 2021-October-09, 12:40, said:

<snip>
For the vast majority of American pairs, control cue bids of this nature show first or second round control. It would after all be quite embarrassing to find that Opener held KJxx JT9xx AK AK and reach 6 missing AK...

Yes this can happen, and I do know,
that a cue showes 1st / 2nd round control, but quite often the Queen in partners known long suit is as valuable as a king.
Showing the Queen is a last resort.
With kind regards
Uwe Gebhardt (P_Marlowe)
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#19 User is offline   DavidKok 

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Posted 2021-October-10, 03:33

Again another gadget could come to the rescue, but it is not Standard American. If you play Last Train the 4 rebid would not be a lie but a perfect description.
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#20 User is offline   johnu 

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Posted 2021-October-10, 04:27

View Postmikl_plkcc, on 2021-October-08, 15:05, said:

Here means I have slam interest even if partner is a minimum, and I don't want the bidding to die at 4-level. I just want a forcing bid to set trumps such that I can start cuebidding in the next round.


Does partner have a pulse, or do you have to overbid all the time in case partner has underbid once again???
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