BBO Discussion Forums: Test Your Mettle - BBO Discussion Forums

Jump to content

  • 2 Pages +
  • 1
  • 2
  • You cannot start a new topic
  • You cannot reply to this topic

Test Your Mettle When room gets crowded

#1 User is offline   Winstonm 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 16,505
  • Joined: 2005-January-08
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Tulsa, Oklahoma
  • Interests:Art, music

Posted 2021-September-29, 16:50

How do you bid? As usual, the system no-frills 2/1. 3C by opener shows extras.


"Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." Black Lives Matter.
0

#2 User is offline   Winstonm 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 16,505
  • Joined: 2005-January-08
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Tulsa, Oklahoma
  • Interests:Art, music

Posted 2021-September-29, 16:54

View PostWinstonm, on 2021-September-29, 16:50, said:

How do you bid? As usual, the system no-frills 2/1. 3C by opener shows extras.





Spoiler

"Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." Black Lives Matter.
0

#3 User is offline   mw64ahw 

  • PipPipPipPip
  • Group: Full Members
  • Posts: 360
  • Joined: 2021-February-13
  • Gender:Not Telling
  • Interests:Bidding & play optimisation via simulation.

Posted 2021-September-30, 02:01

3NT looks good with a NT slam a possibility opposite a North with more than his shown extras. 4NT could start this enquiry.
However, 3 to show an initial preference for (either 3 small or with honour(s)) as here may be preferable looking to play a slam in the Moysian fit or convert to NT later.

Subsequent bids are then
3 - denies a stopper with a weakish suit
3NT - weakish suit stopper choice of games.
4 - 3+ GF given the extras
4 - 5+ with a singleton
4 -I have 2./3 top honours.
0

#4 User is offline   Cyberyeti 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 12,502
  • Joined: 2009-July-13
  • Location:England

Posted 2021-September-30, 02:16

To me (as a non 2/1 player) 3N would show a minimum 2/1, so I bid 4N (4/) would be the ace asks, I'm just showing a 3N bid with extras), now partner just bids 6 and I can choose to pass or bid 6.
0

#5 User is offline   Winstonm 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 16,505
  • Joined: 2005-January-08
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Tulsa, Oklahoma
  • Interests:Art, music

Posted 2021-September-30, 08:49

Do you continue?


"Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." Black Lives Matter.
0

#6 User is offline   Winstonm 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 16,505
  • Joined: 2005-January-08
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Tulsa, Oklahoma
  • Interests:Art, music

Posted 2021-September-30, 08:51

View PostCyberyeti, on 2021-September-30, 02:16, said:

To me (as a non 2/1 player) 3N would show a minimum 2/1, so I bid 4N (4/) would be the ace asks, I'm just showing a 3N bid with extras), now partner just bids 6 and I can choose to pass or bid 6.


What if your partner shows up with: KQ, AJ98x, xx, KQJ10?
"Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." Black Lives Matter.
0

#7 User is offline   Cyberyeti 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 12,502
  • Joined: 2009-July-13
  • Location:England

Posted 2021-September-30, 10:53

View PostWinstonm, on 2021-September-30, 08:51, said:

What if your partner shows up with: KQ, AJ98x, xx, KQJ10?


That's about a king worse than the original hand in terms of trick taking potential (the 5th club is a pretty much certain extra trick), I'd pass 4N with that assuming when I showed "extras" with 3 15 was about minimum.

K&R gives 18/16.8 so closer than I assess it, but I think enough difference.
0

#8 User is offline   Winstonm 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 16,505
  • Joined: 2005-January-08
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Tulsa, Oklahoma
  • Interests:Art, music

Posted 2021-September-30, 11:40

View PostCyberyeti, on 2021-September-30, 10:53, said:

That's about a king worse than the original hand in terms of trick taking potential (the 5th club is a pretty much certain extra trick), I'd pass 4N with that assuming when I showed "extras" with 3 15 was about minimum.

K&R gives 18/16.8 so closer than I assess it, but I think enough difference.


Maybe I'm just old fashioned (maybe Posted Image) but I have an adverse reaction to using Keycard with an uncontrolled suit. Maybe that's a leftover from years of simple Blackwood.
"Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." Black Lives Matter.
0

#9 User is offline   Cyberyeti 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 12,502
  • Joined: 2009-July-13
  • Location:England

Posted 2021-September-30, 12:25

View PostWinstonm, on 2021-September-30, 11:40, said:

Maybe I'm just old fashioned (maybe Posted Image) but I have an adverse reaction to using Keycard with an uncontrolled suit. Maybe that's a leftover from years of simple Blackwood.


NOT keycard, 4N is quantitative, I said 4/ would be KC in the suit below
0

#10 User is offline   nige1 

  • 5-level belongs to me
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 9,085
  • Joined: 2004-August-30
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Glasgow Scotland
  • Interests:Poems Computers

Posted 2021-September-30, 13:27


Winstonm'How do you bid? As usual, the system no-frills 2/1.
3C by opener shows extras.'
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++
I rank
1. 3 = 4SFG. When partner bypasses 3N, your hand improves.
2. 4N = INV.

0

#11 User is online   smerriman 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 2,377
  • Joined: 2014-March-15
  • Gender:Male

Posted 2021-September-30, 14:17

View Postnige1, on 2021-September-30, 13:27, said:

I rank
1. 3 = 4SFG. When partner bypasses 3N, your hand improves.
2. 4N = INV.

I wondered about that, but how are you planning to continue if partner has nothing more to show and rebids a default 4?

Count me for a natural 4N. Even if you don't play some form of kickback, you have 4 to agree clubs first so it doesn't make much sense to play 4NT as keycard.
0

#12 User is offline   pescetom 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 4,637
  • Joined: 2014-February-18
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Italy

Posted 2021-September-30, 16:08

View Postnige1, on 2021-September-30, 13:27, said:

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++
I rank
1. 3 = 4SFG. When partner bypasses 3N, your hand improves.


Interesting, but I don't see what it has to do with 2/1, however you define no-frills.
3 no longer needs to force to game (2 did that) and is basically a stopper ask here IMO.

I would raise hearts inviting a control-bid, although I recognise that is not mainstream and mikeh will say I am masterminding again.
0

#13 User is offline   Winstonm 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 16,505
  • Joined: 2005-January-08
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Tulsa, Oklahoma
  • Interests:Art, music

Posted 2021-September-30, 16:49

View PostCyberyeti, on 2021-September-30, 12:25, said:

NOT keycard, 4N is quantitative, I said 4/ would be KC in the suit below


Frankly, I am surprised anyone is thinking about a NT contract with partner describing a 2 suited hand and my holdings in his presumed weak suits are only Axxx, and Qxxxx. Sure, not both suits are open but one may be and if so the clubs don't have to be running. In other words, it looks like a suit contract is better - at least to me.
"Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." Black Lives Matter.
0

#14 User is offline   Winstonm 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 16,505
  • Joined: 2005-January-08
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Tulsa, Oklahoma
  • Interests:Art, music

Posted 2021-September-30, 16:54

View Postpescetom, on 2021-September-30, 16:08, said:

Interesting, but I don't see what it has to do with 2/1, however you define no-frills.
3 no longer needs to force to game (2 did that) and is basically a stopper ask here IMO.

I would raise hearts inviting a control-bid, although I recognise that is not mainstream and mikeh will say I am masterminding again.


I don't think it masterminding at all. There is no reason to believe that a NT contract is better and partner could still hold a 64 hand while a 5-2 may play just as well if not better than NT. Another reason I like 3H is that it gives partner a chance to continue to tell us how much he likes his hand, and personally I don't think responder has enough to unilaterally commit this hand to any slam.
"Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." Black Lives Matter.
0

#15 User is offline   DavidKok 

  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Full Members
  • Posts: 755
  • Joined: 2020-March-30
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Netherlands

Posted 2021-September-30, 17:42

I don't think bidding 3 with a 6=4 is normal, taking up a level of bidding space to show clubs instead of the extra heart.
At any rate I'd bid 3, fourth suit. 3 would show 3 of them, and I don't have any other bid. I'm not exactly eager to play 6NT, even if partner has extras, so 4NT is a distant second.

If partner is lacking a spade stopper they might have a problem - say 2=5=2=4 or even 3=5=1=4 with weak spades. Especially if partner has extras that might be awkward to bid. But my alternatives are hardly better. And with, say, 5=5 (hearts-clubs) or 1=5=3=4, partner can explain precisely what they're holding. Now that I think about it, partner might even try 4 on the '2=5=2=4, weak spades, extras'-hand, because those extras have to lie in diamonds.

This auction is an example of really needing good partnership understanding. Does 3 show extra values - or perhaps a minimum with a fifth club? If partner bids 3NT over 3, does that show an OK 14 points, or is a reasonable 17 still in the picture? And even on the shown bidding problem: does 3 promise 3-card support?

Over 3, I intend to pass 3NT, correct 4 to 4 (this shows a not-necessarily-strong 5=5 for me), pass 4, and get very excited if partner bids anything else. On a bad day 3NT is cold and 4 a disaster.
0

#16 User is online   smerriman 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 2,377
  • Joined: 2014-March-15
  • Gender:Male

Posted 2021-September-30, 17:57

View PostDavidKok, on 2021-September-30, 17:42, said:

.. even if partner has extras ..

.. if partner has extras that might be awkward to bid ..

Does 3 show extra values - or perhaps a minimum with a fifth club? If partner bids 3NT over 3♠, does that show an OK 14 points..

I suspect you might have missed the part of the first post where 3 promised extras.
0

#17 User is offline   HardVector 

  • PipPipPipPip
  • Group: Full Members
  • Posts: 440
  • Joined: 2018-May-28

Posted 2021-September-30, 20:17

You need more information. That's why you should bid 3s, partner's response will give you that info. I'd be voting for anything but 3n, that would give partner a good hand with nothing wasted in spades. I'd be perfectly happy to lay down the KQ as dummy verses xxx when I go for a heart slam. Partner may bid 4, however. That opens up 7.
0

#18 User is offline   Winstonm 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 16,505
  • Joined: 2005-January-08
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Tulsa, Oklahoma
  • Interests:Art, music

Posted 2021-September-30, 20:48

View PostDavidKok, on 2021-September-30, 17:42, said:

I don't think bidding 3 with a 6=4 is normal, taking up a level of bidding space to show clubs instead of the extra heart.
At any rate I'd bid 3, fourth suit. 3 would show 3 of them, and I don't have any other bid. I'm not exactly eager to play 6NT, even if partner has extras, so 4NT is a distant second.

If partner is lacking a spade stopper they might have a problem - say 2=5=2=4 or even 3=5=1=4 with weak spades. Especially if partner has extras that might be awkward to bid. But my alternatives are hardly better. And with, say, 5=5 (hearts-clubs) or 1=5=3=4, partner can explain precisely what they're holding. Now that I think about it, partner might even try 4 on the '2=5=2=4, weak spades, extras'-hand, because those extras have to lie in diamonds.

This auction is an example of really needing good partnership understanding. Does 3 show extra values - or perhaps a minimum with a fifth club? If partner bids 3NT over 3, does that show an OK 14 points, or is a reasonable 17 still in the picture? And even on the shown bidding problem: does 3 promise 3-card support?

Over 3, I intend to pass 3NT, correct 4 to 4 (this shows a not-necessarily-strong 5=5 for me), pass 4, and get very excited if partner bids anything else. On a bad day 3NT is cold and 4 a disaster.


3C shows extras. A 2H rebid does not promise 6. Opener can be 54,55,64,65, or even 66.
"Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." Black Lives Matter.
0

#19 User is online   smerriman 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 2,377
  • Joined: 2014-March-15
  • Gender:Male

Posted 2021-September-30, 21:15

View PostWinstonm, on 2021-September-30, 20:48, said:

3C shows extras. A 2H rebid does not promise 6. Opener can be 54,55,64,65, or even 66.

2 doesn't *promise* 6, but you'd still bid it with virtually all 6-4 hands, wouldn't you? If partner continues with 2 or 2N, your next 3 bid now shows the 6-4; if partner bids 3 you're also happy, while if you hear a 3 rebid you probably don't want to show 4 clubs anyway.
1

#20 User is offline   Cyberyeti 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 12,502
  • Joined: 2009-July-13
  • Location:England

Posted 2021-October-01, 01:46

View PostWinstonm, on 2021-September-30, 16:49, said:

Frankly, I am surprised anyone is thinking about a NT contract with partner describing a 2 suited hand and my holdings in his presumed weak suits are only Axxx, and Qxxxx. Sure, not both suits are open but one may be and if so the clubs don't have to be running. In other words, it looks like a suit contract is better - at least to me.


If partner is 2524/3514 I may well want to play 4N/6N, partner will show extra shape here if he has it, so we're likely to play in a suit opposite 6 or 5 or 3.
0

Share this topic:


  • 2 Pages +
  • 1
  • 2
  • You cannot start a new topic
  • You cannot reply to this topic

1 User(s) are reading this topic
0 members, 1 guests, 0 anonymous users