[Douglas43]

Just found out the hard way that in GiB standard 2♣- 2♦ -4♦ is apparently not forcing. Left sittting in 4♦ with grand slam looking very respectable.

[spade7]

In real life 4♦ is unconditionally forcing and 100% sets diamonds as trumps. After that responder should cue, bid 4NT; or sign off in 5♦ with absolutely nothing.

[smerriman]

Yep. As far as I'm aware, jumping in a new suit is undefined for GIB.

[Douglas43]

spade7, on 2021-October-04, 00:52, said:

In real life 4♦ is unconditionally forcing and 100% sets diamonds as trumps. After that responder should cue, bid 4NT; or sign off in 5♦ with absolutely nothing.

Thanks spade7, that's what I thought, but I was beginning to wonder if I was imagining it when GIB didn't recognise it.

[Huibertus]

I've seen many issues with GF situations ending up in 4 minor playing with Robots. Even when they have made a bid that is annotated as a GF. I believe the robots are programmed to think 4 of a minor IS game.

[mw64ahw]

My real life is different and for practical purposes GF is forcing to 3NT/4m/4M while 4♦ may or may not be forcing to game depending on prior bidding. In the above example I would view this as invitational only since with the requisite strength I would bid 5♦/move directly to a slam enquiry.

I'm assuming that 2♣ is preceded by 1M, given that 2♦ would be negative over a 2♣ opening.

[patcanuck]

I've got a better one for you: I had a massive hand and yet partner opened with my best suit. Quickly bid 4NT and the bot said it had one honour only. No problem: depended on which honour so I gambled on slam anyhow. Dummy goes down and it has AK of trump!
A nice surprise but how can you rely on bots after what the original poster said and what so many have experienced.

[pes_6]

GIBs have a lots of errors. It's not happy situation when you got GIB for partner in automated tourneys but sometime they are better players than random players. I don't know how it work with advanced GIBs, maybe they are better, and yes that sequence is apsolutly forcing for me.

[barmar]

patcanuck, on 2021-October-04, 06:19, said:

I've got a better one for you: I had a massive hand and yet partner opened with my best suit. Quickly bid 4NT and the bot said it had one honour only. No problem: depended on which honour so I gambled on slam anyhow. Dummy goes down and it has AK of trump!
A nice surprise but how can you rely on bots after what the original poster said and what so many have experienced.

In "expert standard", if you jump straight to Blackwood without first showing a fit (e.g. with Jacoby 2NT), it's old fashioned ace-asking, not Roman Keycard. Although I didn't think GIB had this understanding.

[Douglas43]

mw64ahw, on 2021-October-04, 06:16, said:

My real life is different and for practical purposes GF is forcing to 3NT/4m/4M while 4♦ may or may not be forcing to game depending on prior bidding. In the above example I would view this as invitational only since with the requisite strength I would bid 5♦/move directly to a slam enquiry.

I'm assuming that 2♣ is preceded by 1M, given that 2♦ would be negative over a 2♣ opening.

Not in this case, 2♣ was an opening based on void, AKQ, AKQxxxx, KQx. Which Is why I found the pass somewhat disappointing (just to add insult to injury the Bot has A♣). Unfortunately neither does GiB seem to play a 4NT opening as "name an Ace", as I've played it for 40 years and never needed it before.

[mw64ahw]

Douglas43, on 2021-October-04, 09:18, said:

Not in this case, 2♣ was an opening based on void, AKQ, AKQxxxx, KQx. Which Is why I found the pass somewhat disappointing (just to add insult to injury the Bot has A♣). Unfortunately neither does GiB seem to play a 4NT opening as "name an Ace", as I've played it for 40 years and never needed it before.

Perhaps 3♦ would have been better, then at least the BOT can add 22/23 plus 4 to realise it needs to bid again. How many diamonds did it have?

[barmar]

mw64ahw, on 2021-October-04, 06:16, said:

I'm assuming that 2♣ is preceded by 1M, given that 2♦ would be negative over a 2♣ opening.

GIB plays 2♦ response to 2♣ as waiting, not negative. It uses cheaper minor as a 2nd negative.

Unfortunately, it doesn't play that opener's jump in a suit shows a self-sufficient suit that sets trumps and asks responder to start cue bidding.

[smerriman]

patcanuck, on 2021-October-04, 06:19, said:

I've got a better one for you: I had a massive hand and yet partner opened with my best suit. Quickly bid 4NT and the bot said it had one honour only. No problem: depended on which honour so I gambled on slam anyhow. Dummy goes down and it has AK of trump!
A nice surprise but how can you rely on bots after what the original poster said and what so many have experienced.

Do you still have the hand record? I've seen GIB do a lot of weird stuff, but *never* get RKCB wrong.

[johnu]

Good bidding by GIB. Anybody can bid a grand with 13 top tricks. It takes "special" bidding to stop in a part score.

[Huibertus]

pes_6, on 2021-October-04, 06:59, said:

I don't know how it work with advanced GIBs, maybe they are better.

Me neither, but the performance of the standard bots is so poor at times I'd never consider paying for advanced bots. I fully understand there must be a performance difference in order to make anyone pay, but surely it can't be big, you have to build trust too in order to make people pay...

[pescetom]

Huibertus, on 2021-October-04, 05:48, said:

I believe the robots are programmed to think 4 of a minor IS game.

A century ago, 6 of a minor was game. Maybe they are just ahead of their time.

[Douglas43]

mw64ahw, on 2021-October-04, 09:55, said:

Perhaps 3♦ would have been better, then at least the BOT can add 22/23 plus 4 to realise it needs to bid again. How many diamonds did it have?

It just had 1 diamond

[mw64ahw]

barmar, on 2021-October-04, 10:52, said:

GIB plays 2♦ response to 2♣ as waiting, not negative. It uses cheaper minor as a 2nd negative.

Unfortunately, it doesn't play that opener's jump in a suit shows a self-sufficient suit that sets trumps and asks responder to start cue bidding.

So I guess the 1st negative is 2♦ or waiting.😁

[johnu]

patcanuck, on 2021-October-04, 06:19, said:

I've got a better one for you: I had a massive hand and yet partner opened with my best suit. Quickly bid 4NT and the bot said it had one honour only. No problem: depended on which honour so I gambled on slam anyhow. Dummy goes down and it has AK of trump!
A nice surprise but how can you rely on bots after what the original poster said and what so many have experienced.

King only counts as a key card if it is in the trump suit. You may have known what trumps were supposed to be, but did GIB/partner?

[smerriman]

johnu, on 2021-October-05, 14:51, said:

King only counts as a key card if it is in the trump suit. You may have known what trumps were supposed to be, but did GIB/partner?

Well, the OP said GIB opened with the OP's best suit, and they bid 4NT; if there were no intervening bids left out of the story, then GIB did.

But yeah, there is definitely something wrong with the story, since if they were missing both AK of trumps then it's really not viable for slam to "depend on which honour" the bot had. So much more likely there would have been some misunderstanding on the human side here, rather than GIB getting the response wrong.