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Four on the floor Mea culpa

#1 User is online   nige1 

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Posted 2021-September-12, 15:51


Isle of Man Swiss Teams.

Would you go on after partner raises, pre-emptively, to game?
Luckily I "passed" the bidding problem :)
but I butchered the play problem. :(
Against 4 West led T. Dummy hopped up J but East ruffed with 2..
East returned 5. What now?

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#2 User is offline   sfi 

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Posted 2021-September-12, 16:30

You don't really have much choice, do you? You have to play the HK and then the SA hoping the king drops. The only alternative is to play East for both heart honours, the CA and the SK. I don't see East trying a low heart from that hand.
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#3 User is offline   AL78 

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Posted 2021-September-12, 16:32

I would put the king up. If West has the A, you cannot stop him winning and giving East another ruff, and you still have a club loser. If East only started with one spade and cannot get another ruff, you have a spade loser and the contract is still hopeless. Therefore I hope East has the ace and started with three small spades or K2, and I can get in with the K and play the spade ace crashing the king. I hope to make five spade tricks, one heart trick, three diamond tricks and a heart ruff or the club king, which I know is a long shot but it is the only way I can see to give myself a chance of making.

I could of course be reading this problem completely wrong and the objective is not to take desperate measures to make, but to minimise the number of -100's I concede.
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#4 User is offline   pilowsky 

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Posted 2021-September-12, 17:10

Spoiler

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#5 User is offline   Winstonm 

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Posted 2021-September-12, 17:27

It seems most likely east started with whatever spade length there may be. If I rise K of hearts, I still lose if I play spade ace and another if the spades are 4-0 and west has the heart Q.
If I make the reasonable assumption that east holds spade length, my only chance to make against the 4-0 looks to me as if I have to play east for Kxxx, AQxxx, void, Axxx, so I play the heart jack. If that holds, I can exit with the club K and get back to dummy with a club ruff, take the finesse, and after picking up the spades still unblock the diamonds and end up ruffing a losing heart in hand.

It's not all that farfetched is it?
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#6 User is offline   smerriman 

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Posted 2021-September-12, 19:24

View PostWinstonm, on 2021-September-12, 17:27, said:

It's not all that farfetched is it?

By my vacant spaces calculations after the 6-0 diamond split, I get:

15% chance of East holding Kxxx
10% chance of East holding xxx
17% chance of East holding Kx

So the latter two seem much more likely (and that's before multiplying by the fact you need East to have many more specific cards in the 4-0 version vs just the heart king in the others, or the fact East would likely prefer leading a low club to a heart with the 4-0 hand).
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#7 User is offline   Winstonm 

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Posted 2021-September-12, 19:38

View Postsmerriman, on 2021-September-12, 19:24, said:

By my vacant spaces calculations after the 6-0 diamond split, I get:

15% chance of East holding Kxxx
10% chance of East holding xxx
17% chance of East holding Kx


So the latter two seem much more likely (and that's before multiplying by the fact you need East to have many more specific cards in the 4-0 version vs just the heart king in the others, or the fact East would likely prefer leading a low club
to a heart with the 4-0 hand).


Yes, to make you need the heart ace on your right and the spade king to fall under the ace. Or my unlikely scenario.
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#8 User is offline   mikeh 

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Posted 2021-September-12, 23:38

View PostWinstonm, on 2021-September-12, 17:27, said:

It seems most likely east started with whatever spade length there may be. If I rise K of hearts, I still lose if I play spade ace and another if the spades are 4-0 and west has the heart Q.
If I make the reasonable assumption that east holds spade length, my only chance to make against the 4-0 looks to me as if I have to play east for Kxxx, AQxxx, void, Axxx, so I play the heart jack. If that holds, I can exit with the club K and get back to dummy with a club ruff, take the finesse, and after picking up the spades still unblock the diamonds and end up ruffing a losing heart in hand.

It's not all that farfetched is it?

If Rho has the AQxx in hearts, why play the Jack? When does it ever win?

Meanwhile, the King works just as well against that holding.

And if LHO encourages in hearts you know not to exit the club King (although not every RHO, on winning the presumed Ace, would underlead in hearts again. So you’d do what I would do anyway…heart King, spade Ace. This wins, if winning is possible, against all 2-2 trump spilts and LHO having the stiff King.

Note that if LHO has the Kx in spades, my heart loser goes away on the diamonds.
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#9 User is offline   sfi 

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Posted 2021-September-13, 00:30

View Postmikeh, on 2021-September-12, 23:38, said:

Note that if LHO has the Kx in spades, my heart loser goes away on the diamonds.

Not once you block them at trick one.
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#10 User is offline   AL78 

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Posted 2021-September-13, 02:44

View Postsfi, on 2021-September-13, 00:30, said:

Not once you block them at trick one.


If the spade king comes down from East under the ace, you can unblock the diamonds and cross to dummy with a spade.
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#11 User is offline   sfi 

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Posted 2021-September-13, 02:49

View PostAL78, on 2021-September-13, 02:44, said:

If the spade king comes down from East under the ace, you can unblock the diamonds and cross to dummy with a spade.

Yes - if the SK drops you're making (assuming the HK wins). My comment was replying to Mike who was trying to make when LHO has Kx of trumps. It looks like you could run the diamonds and pitch your heart, but the suit is blocked and you have to give up the lead to get to dummy.
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#12 User is offline   mikeh 

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Posted 2021-September-13, 08:53

View Postsfi, on 2021-September-13, 00:30, said:

Not once you block them at trick one.

True
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#13 User is online   nige1 

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Posted 2021-September-13, 09:26

View Postsfi, on 2021-September-12, 16:30, said:

You don't really have much choice, do you? You have to play the HK and then the SA hoping the king drops. The only alternative is to play East for both heart honours, the CA and the SK. I don't see East trying a low heart from that hand.

View PostAL78, on 2021-September-12, 16:32, said:

I would put the king up. If West has the A, you cannot stop him winning and giving East another ruff, and you still have a club loser. If East only started with one spade and cannot get another ruff, you have a spade loser and the contract is still hopeless. Therefore I hope East has the ace and started with three small spades or K2, and I can get in with the K and play the spade ace crashing the king. I hope to make five spade tricks, one heart trick, three diamond tricks and a heart ruff or the club king, which I know is a long shot but it is the only way I can see to give myself a chance of making.I could of course be reading this problem completely wrong and the objective is not to take desperate measures to make, but to minimise the number of -100's I concede.

Would you go on after partner raises, pre-emptively, to game?Luckily I "passed" the bidding problem :) but I butchered the play problem. :( Against 4 West led T. Dummy hopped up J but East ruffed with 2. East returned 5
++++++++++++++++++

I finessed J to West's Q. West gave East another ruff. East cashed A and led another . Now I finessed Q losing to singleton K. Three down :(
+++++++++++++++++++

SciFi and Al78 played correctly :) - for the right reasons @) Rising with K. As the cards lie, they lose only one further trick - - A,. Hence they make a well deserved overtrick :)
4 tricks difference

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#14 User is offline   Winstonm 

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Posted 2021-September-13, 09:35

View Postmikeh, on 2021-September-12, 23:38, said:

If Rho has the AQxx in hearts, why play the Jack? When does it ever win?

Meanwhile, the King works just as well against that holding.

And if LHO encourages in hearts you know not to exit the club King (although not every RHO, on winning the presumed Ace, would underlead in hearts again. So you'd do what I would do anyway…heart King, spade Ace. This wins, if winning is possible, against all 2-2 trump spilts and LHO having the stiff King.

Note that if LHO has the Kx in spades, my heart loser goes away on the diamonds.


If west holds the Q - unless singleton - it doesn't really matter other than to go down more. And if east holds the queen and west the ace, you've saved a trick, have you not?

Btw, I am not arguing for this to be the right line - just another line.
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#15 User is online   nige1 

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Posted 2021-September-13, 18:45

View PostWinstonm, on 2021-September-12, 17:27, said:

It seems most likely east started with whatever spade length there may be. If I rise K of hearts, I still lose if I play spade ace and another if the spades are 4-0 and west has the heart Q.If I make the reasonable assumption that east holds spade length, my only chance to make against the 4-0 looks to me as if I have to play east for Kxxx, AQxxx, void, Axxx, so I play the heart jack. If that holds, I can exit with the club K and get back to dummy with a club ruff, take the finesse, and after picking up the spades still unblock the diamonds and end up ruffing a losing heart in hand. It's not all that farfetched is it?

View Postmikeh, on 2021-September-12, 23:38, said:

If Rho has the AQxx in hearts, why play the Jack? When does it ever win? Meanwhile, the King works just as well against that holding. And if LHO encourages in hearts you know not to exit the club King (although not every RHO, on winning the presumed Ace, would underlead in hearts again. So you'd do what I would do anyway…heart King, spade Ace. This wins, if winning is possible, against all 2-2 trump splits and LHO having the stiff King.Note that if LHO has the Kx in spades, my heart loser goes away on the diamonds.
An expert East should probably cash A. before switching to a small , so that when K wins, declarer might still be tempted to ruff a and finesse Q, as WinstonM suggests.
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#16 User is offline   Douglas43 

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Posted 2021-September-14, 21:49

I sat west and my opponent played the AS. Is there an emoji for wailing and gnashing of teeth?
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#17 User is offline   pilowsky 

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Posted 2021-September-15, 02:21

This one perhaps? https://emojipedia.o...i/%F0%9F%98%B1/
non est deus ex machina; även maskiner behöver lite kärlek, J'ai toujours misé sur l'étrange gentillesse des robots.
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#18 User is offline   sfi 

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Posted 2021-September-15, 03:32

View PostDouglas43, on 2021-September-14, 21:49, said:

I sat west and my opponent played the AS. Is there an emoji for wailing and gnashing of teeth?

You only have yourself to blame ;). You could have led a club to give your side a chance of beating the contract.
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#19 User is offline   Douglas43 

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Posted 2021-September-15, 09:14

Not guilty, North was declarer at our table
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