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I bid a slam directly after a 2C opener will you do so

#1 User is offline   mikl_plkcc 

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Posted 2021-September-02, 17:47

This is probably the fastest slam I have bid in my life:



2 = strong hand (20+ unbal / 22+ bal / 1.5 tricks short of game)
2 = 3 controls (A=2, K=1)
6 = TO PLAY!!!!!!!!!

The reason that I bid so damn fast was that the conventional response provided immediate count that a 6 contract was highly likely (only 1 K is missing). Result was 6=, 50% MP only out of 7 tables. Our contract was wrong-sided because of the conventional response, and the other two right-sided 6 made all 13 tricks. There were also 2 tables bid 6NT, one made and one set. There were only 2 tables not reaching slam, at 4 and 3NT respectively.

I'm interested in how the others bid this slam using various methods.
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#2 User is offline   TylerE 

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Posted 2021-September-02, 21:21

You're going to look pretty foolish whenever partner comes down with a spade void, and/or 7m makes.
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#3 User is online   pilowsky 

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Posted 2021-September-03, 01:15

I would like to know as well.
My preference is 2 forces 2 if no interference.
Allowing the opener to describe their hand better.
I'm aware that others use relays and point/shape showing bids, but the advantage isn't clear to me.
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#4 User is offline   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2021-September-03, 01:31

View PostTylerE, on 2021-September-02, 21:21, said:

You're going to look pretty foolish whenever partner comes down with a spade void, and/or 7m makes.


Indeed, partner can have void, AQxx, Qxxxxx, Kxx where 7N is cold and you won't make 6 unless you're very lucky.

I don't like the control showing responses because they cramp auctions like this, if I playes this system I'd open 1.
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#5 User is offline   mikl_plkcc 

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Posted 2021-September-03, 04:06

Are you serious you will open 1S holding a 22 count unbalanced?
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#6 User is offline   DavidKok 

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Posted 2021-September-03, 04:24

I'd open 2 with this because I have an easy 2 bid on the second round, partner will almost always bid 2 in my system. In your system I don't see a downside of bidding 3 over 2. I think opening 1 is not the best opening bid but is also not crazy - if you were to swap the diamonds and spades, for example, I think it's close between showing a ~23 point notrump and opening 1.
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#7 User is offline   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2021-September-03, 04:56

View PostDavidKok, on 2021-September-03, 04:24, said:

I'd open 2 with this because I have an easy 2 bid on the second round, partner will almost always bid 2 in my system. In your system I don't see a downside of bidding 3 over 2. I think opening 1 is not the best opening bid but is also not crazy - if you were to swap the diamonds and spades, for example, I think it's close between showing a ~23 point notrump and opening 1.


How do you bid after 2-2-3 ? The auction is already really cramped ?

We would start 2-2N-3 if we opened 2 so not much better off, but at least we know partner has a hand that is 9+ and the auction is F4N.

Quote

Are you serious you will open 1S holding a 22 count unbalanced?


I will open some unbalanced 22s 1 (2-2-2 is FG for us so we have a fairly high bar for 2), I would only do it with this one if I played these responses.
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#8 User is offline   mikl_plkcc 

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Posted 2021-September-03, 05:32

View PostDavidKok, on 2021-September-03, 04:24, said:

I'd open 2 with this because I have an easy 2 bid on the second round, partner will almost always bid 2 in my system. In your system I don't see a downside of bidding 3 over 2. I think opening 1 is not the best opening bid but is also not crazy - if you were to swap the diamonds and spades, for example, I think it's close between showing a ~23 point notrump and opening 1.

If I bid 3 in the second round, it will likely go 2 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 6NT. I admit this is better now and my "bridge judgement" is lacking after a few years of absence in the game.

If I swap diamonds and spades, it is still a solid 2 opener here. Opening a 1 massively understates the hand and will probably be responded with a 3NT to play directly by the partner, and opening any NT is just a blatant lie on the shape.
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#9 User is offline   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2021-September-03, 06:35

View Postmikl_plkcc, on 2021-September-03, 05:32, said:

If I bid 3 in the second round, it will likely go 2 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 6NT. I admit this is better now and my "bridge judgement" is lacking after a few years of absence in the game.

If I swap diamonds and spades, it is still a solid 2 opener here. Opening a 1 massively understates the hand and will probably be responded with a 3NT to play directly by the partner, and opening any NT is just a blatant lie on the shape.


4 and 6N are strange bids, you don't bid bad suits on good hands, if partner did bid 4 I'd picture QJxxx minimum and expect to be making 7N if partner's K is in spades.
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#10 User is offline   mikl_plkcc 

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Posted 2021-September-03, 06:58

View PostCyberyeti, on 2021-September-03, 06:35, said:

4 and 6N are strange bids, you don't bid bad suits on good hands, if partner did bid 4 I'd picture QJxxx minimum and expect to be making 7N if partner's K is in spades.


I don't understand the reason of your saying "you don't bid bad suits on good hands". I only bid according to the length strictly, with only overcalls and preempts having strength requirement. For example, I always bid xxxxx first then AKQJ in an uncontested auction, as trump length is the most important thing in making a contract. The reason of having strict length requirement is to make sure that we have the most efficient method in finding the LONGEST trump fit.

For example,
xxxxxAKQJTAKx is an automatic 1 opener for me.
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#11 User is offline   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2021-September-03, 07:54

View Postmikl_plkcc, on 2021-September-03, 06:58, said:

I don't understand the reason of your saying "you don't bid bad suits on good hands". I only bid according to the length strictly, with only overcalls and preempts having strength requirement. For example, I always bid xxxxx first then AKQJ in an uncontested auction, as trump length is the most important thing in making a contract. The reason of having strict length requirement is to make sure that we have the most efficient method in finding the LONGEST trump fit.

For example,
xxxxxAKQJTAKx is an automatic 1 opener for me.


If you are already in a slammy auction, you don't normally bid a crap suit, partner tends to take you a bit more seriously, BEFORE you're in a slammy auction, fair enough, bid on length.
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#12 User is offline   DavidKok 

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Posted 2021-September-03, 09:12

View PostCyberyeti, on 2021-September-03, 04:56, said:

How do you bid after 2-2-3 ? The auction is already really cramped ?

We would start 2-2N-3 if we opened 2 so not much better off, but at least we know partner has a hand that is 9+ and the auction is F4N.
Yes, it is. This is not the system I prefer over 2. I also think showing 3 controls opposite a 2 opening should perhaps force to at least 4NT. But this is exactly the tradeoff when opening 2 - your auction will be cramped and annoying, but at least you're getting to game opposite ~3 points and partner will try for slam on a modest 8 or so.

View Postmikl_plkcc, on 2021-September-03, 05:32, said:

If I bid 3 in the second round, it will likely go 2 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 6NT. I admit this is better now and my "bridge judgement" is lacking after a few years of absence in the game.

If I swap diamonds and spades, it is still a solid 2 opener here. Opening a 1 massively understates the hand and will probably be responded with a 3NT to play directly by the partner, and opening any NT is just a blatant lie on the shape.
Showing a very strong (19+) NT with a singleton honour is very often the smallest lie, and is quite a popular decision. I'm not sure why you and your partner are trying to jump so much - first with 6, now with 6NT, and next with 3NT on some alternative auction after flipping suits. If you are in a force try to keep the bidding low and make maximum use of your bidding space. I don't know if you had ways to show two-suiters over 2 earlier, if so 4 now ought to show a control for diamond slam. But if not- partner has already shown controls with 2, what would 4NT be? Maybe something good, such as forcing with support for diamonds?
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#13 User is offline   Winstonm 

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Posted 2021-September-03, 09:37

Two club auctions are inherently cramped. You have to choose to tightly define 2c and responses and leave all other openings at the 1-level or take a loose approach to 2c and understand that you will be guessing a lot
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#14 User is offline   mikl_plkcc 

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Posted 2021-September-03, 11:52

View PostDavidKok, on 2021-September-03, 09:12, said:

Showing a very strong (19+) NT with a singleton honour is very often the smallest lie, and is quite a popular decision. I'm not sure why you and your partner are trying to jump so much - first with 6, now with 6NT, and next with 3NT on some alternative auction after flipping suits. If you are in a force try to keep the bidding low and make maximum use of your bidding space. I don't know if you had ways to show two-suiters over 2 earlier, if so 4 now ought to show a control for diamond slam. But if not- partner has already shown controls with 2, what would 4NT be? Maybe something good, such as forcing with support for diamonds?


I don't have any continuation defined after a 2 opener, and all bids starting from opener's rebid are natural. And a 4NT bid in constructive auction, without trump agreement, is always a quantitative invite to 6NT (with trump agreement it is RKCB). We have defined trump agreement to be an immediate raise, same suit bid by the same person 3 times (or 2 times starting with a preempt), or any other auctions which show an 8-card fit. So 2 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 4NT is non-forcing here and asks responder to bid 6NT with extra values.

And for me, lying on shape is a very huge lie unless partner is limited, and certainly not to be used in constructive auctions. If I am forced to make a lie, I will lie on strength instead of shape. And I take NT openers very seriously that it can only ever be 4333, 4432 or 5m332, because all the continuations defined to find a 8-card major fit (the first priority of all constructive bidding sequences) for all possible responder shapes are based on such assumptions.
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#15 User is offline   nullve 

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Posted 2021-September-04, 02:26

View Postmikl_plkcc, on 2021-September-02, 17:47, said:

I'm interested in how the others bid this slam using various methods.


(rotated for convenience)

nullve(W)-nullve(E):

P(1)-2(2)
2(3)-2N(4)
3(5)-3(6)
3(7)-3(8)
3N(9)-4(10)
4(11)-4(12)
5(13)-5(14)
5(15)-6(16)
6N(17)-P

(1) normalish (in 2nd seat)
(2) 2- or 3-suited canapé preempt in spades OR unBAL GF with primary spades
(3) P/C opposite the preemptive type
(4) GF, roughly either 1-suited or 5+S4+C
(5) relay
(6) 1-suited
(7) relay with slam interest
(8) 62(32) or something with C (6331, 7(21)3, 7330, 8221, ...)
(9) relay
(10) 6331, usually 22-24 (non-walrus) hcp
(11) Parity Key Card Blackwood in D
(12) even # of key cards
(13) trump Q ask
(14) no trump Q
(15) K ask
(16) K, Q, no Q
(17) contract (at MPs)
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#16 User is offline   pescetom 

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Posted 2021-September-04, 03:10

I would be tempted to treat this as balanced given the ♧A, in which case:
2♧ 2◇
2♡ 2♤
2NT 6NT
p

If not, I would probably opt for the (admittedly imprecise) option of imposing trumps in spades, once partner confirms he has at least a king:
2♧ 2◇
3♤ 4♡
4NT 5♡
6♤ p
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#17 User is offline   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2021-September-04, 03:39

Our auction would be slightly clumsy if we opened 2.

2-2N (9+ bal or sometimes a bad 5m F4N)
3(this is more often often 6 non solid than for most, we play an art 3 here and would bid 3N with 5332)-3N
4N (guaranteed exactly 6 card spades as no second suit bid instead or 4)-5N
6

I'm not sure whether 6 or 6N is the best spot at MPs, 6N is dodgy on a club lead but does score better.
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#18 User is offline   fromageGB 

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Posted 2021-September-04, 04:38

View Postmikl_plkcc, on 2021-September-03, 11:52, said:

I don't have any continuation defined after a 2 opener, and all bids starting from opener's rebid are natural.

I think this is a problem.

The bidding in my partnership methods starts with 2 because, although marginal, it is not hard to envisage missing a game if 1 is passed out.

2 (probably GF) - 2 (positive with at least 1 ace or king, and sets a GF)
2 (first or only suit) - 2NT (the next step denies 3 spades and this is my worst suit [to allow opener to bid a second suit])
3 (next step = I insist on spades) - 3(2 steps = 2 AKs)
3NT (2 steps = asks for cheapest side Q starting with diamonds and going up the ranks) - 4 (=none)
4NT (ace asking) - 5 (2 steps = 2 of 6 :AAAAKQ)

There is no point in looking for side kings as responder cannot have any. Responder has denied both red Qs. Opener can see a possible heart loser on a finesse, and a certain diamond loser as there is nowhere to throw it. If responder has long hearts he will not have an entry after taking the heart finesse. Spades can take a 4-2 break, but they may break more badly. There may be voids around, and it seems slam odds are a bit worse than 50%. I rule out NT because a club lead will give a bigger negative if the heart finesse fails.

5 or 6? I think in matchpoints I bid 5, but is very close.
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#19 User is offline   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2021-September-04, 08:26

View PostfromageGB, on 2021-September-04, 04:38, said:

I think this is a problem.

The bidding in my partnership methods starts with 2 because, although marginal, it is not hard to envisage missing a game if 1 is passed out.

2 (probably GF) - 2 (positive with at least 1 ace or king, and sets a GF)
2 (first or only suit) - 2NT (the next step denies 3 spades and this is my worst suit [to allow opener to bid a second suit])
3 (next step = I insist on spades) - 3(2 steps = 2 AKs)
3NT (2 steps = asks for cheapest side Q starting with diamonds and going up the ranks) - 4 (=none)
4NT (ace asking) - 5 (2 steps = 2 of 6 :AAAAKQ)

There is no point in looking for side kings as responder cannot have any. Responder has denied both red Qs. Opener can see a possible heart loser on a finesse, and a certain diamond loser as there is nowhere to throw it. If responder has long hearts he will not have an entry after taking the heart finesse. Spades can take a 4-2 break, but they may break more badly. There may be voids around, and it seems slam odds are a bit worse than 50%. I rule out NT because a club lead will give a bigger negative if the heart finesse fails.

5 or 6? I think in matchpoints I bid 5, but is very close.


The problem is that if partner has the K and 5 cards in a red suit, 6 is fine, responder has told nothing much about his shape, even J10xx or A10xx are fine.
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