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Preempt or not? Bid on

#1 User is offline   mw64ahw 

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Posted 2021-September-01, 02:46


Dealer West IMPs or MPs with no interference from NS
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#2 User is offline   LBengtsson 

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Posted 2021-September-01, 04:54

I am opening 1 here 100% of the time. I can not see how you do not end up in 4 or 4 in a 2/1 auction. If you go above 4M then your bidding judgement is off. The trouble with many players using 2/1 is that they should always go for the best game, and only go for slam with extras or a super fit. Both hands are minimum so I will be surprised if any progress beyond a game auction does happens. 3NT by east seems a crazy contract to end in once the fit is found.

pre-empting with 6-4 in the majors and two good suits headed by the A is crazy...
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#3 User is offline   paulg 

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Posted 2021-September-01, 05:42

I don't really understand the title since no-one should be pre-empting with either of these hands, but I think both hands provide interesting questions about how to bid them.

I would also open the West hand with one spade. It is a minimum opening hand, but not sub-minimum.

In a sense it is a pity that both hands are shown, since West's rebid after, say, a two clubs response is interesting. Do you rebid 2 to show the hearts or 2 to try and show minimum with six? I think most would start with 2 but now there is a danger of getting too high. Rebidding 2 works well if partner continues with 2NT, but so often they just bid 3NT and now you miss your fit.

Of course East's first response is also a question of system and style. I prefer 2 with a balanced hand and without a five-card diamond suit although most of my club would respond 2.
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#4 User is offline   mikeh 

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Posted 2021-September-01, 07:31

No good pair will get too high.

1S 2C
2S 2N
3H 4H


1S because the hand is wrong for a preempt and too strong to pass. aces are undervalued in the 4321 count, and we have combined honours (and both major suit 10s).

2C because the hand is wrong for 2D.

The only other call Iíd contemplate as responder is a forcing 1N, intending to bid game at my next turn. This flat, aceless , hand with no spot cards is as overvalued by the point count as the west hand is undervalued.

Opener should, imo, bid 2S. Thereís no hurry to bid hearts yet, and bidding hearts leaves us with a problem over a 2N rebid by responder. Itís still common, in expert circles, to play openerís 1S then 2H then 3S as an extra values 6=4. While I like openerís hand, it definitely does not have extra values.

1S then 2S then 3H shows a minimum 6=4, which is why responder should rebid 2N even if 2S shows 6, which it would not for me.

If opener did rebid 2H, responder has no aces and poor hearts, but still has enough for 3H, imo, which shows at least some interest in cooperating should opener hold a good hand.

But even if opener, appreciating the potential power of the hand opposite say Kx KQxx Qxx AKxx, cuebid 3S, eastís lack of aces and relatively weak hearts (suit texture is important in slam auctions) should bid 4H.
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#5 User is online   Winstonm 

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Posted 2021-September-01, 08:31

I always used forcing NT as 100% forcing and this responding hand type gets a little clunky. However, we always thought that it was worth it in order to retain the descriptive bids of 2C and 2D as genuine 5-card suits.
1S-1N
2S-3N
4H-P

Like I said, a little clunky.


We opened sound but even I would open this hand 1S. If this hand were diamonds and clubs, I would pass.



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#6 User is online   nige1 

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Posted 2021-September-01, 08:47

mw64ahw 'Dealer West no interference from NS'
+++++++++++++++++++
Suggested auction on left.
West makes a resonable1 opener.
If a 1N reply by East is non-forcing, then 2 is a sensible compromise.
In either case, for West, I prefer a 2 rebid to a 2.

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#7 User is offline   apollo1201 

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Posted 2021-September-01, 11:58

Not (yet!) playing 2/1, an easy and almost natural auction.

1S (this hand is so much better than some quacky12 points 4333īs, Iíve not been dealt those 10-9 for nothing) - 2C (or 2D, your plan is to get to 3NT unless partner turns out with 6S or 4H)

2H (compulsory here unlike 2/1 when you could show them after a forcing 2NT) - 3H (forcing, just in case)

4H (min despite good shape but xxx C is worrying) - pass (flattish 14 HCP made of K and Jís, yes, Kx S is good but the rest is not really better than what weíve expressed so far)
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#8 User is offline   mw64ahw 

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Posted 2021-September-02, 03:33

It looks like these hands distinguish between standard club players and this forum's participants.
Of the 16 boards none opened 1 and there was a single 2 opener. I guess this reflects my own journey to gaining experience.
Originally I also would have passed with the distribution not meeting the criteria of a traditional weak 2 and the hcp count being too low for 1 (I remember one pair telling me that they occasionally opened with 10hcp).
After gaining an 'Ekren 2" pre-empt I may have opened accordingly, however sitting NS we sat back and waited.
Analysing the evening's boards my bidding simulator opened 1 so I must have been thinking along the correct lines when programming although swapping out a Ten for a Nine a 1 opening would not have been the outcome.
The simulators bidding was a straightforward 1-2 (I prefer nebulous)-2-4 (no messing around looking for long simply because the probabilities for the game were ~82% vs ~74% for . In this case 4 wasn't makeable with a good defence.

Of the 16 boards 2 pairs ended up bidding and making game in with 2 others going down. 3 pairs bid 4 with all going down. Others made part scores in or with the final contracts being 5-4 in favour of

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#9 User is online   DavidKok 

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Posted 2021-September-02, 04:08

1 is the best bid, but I think pass is much better than an Ekren 2-bid (hearts or diamonds depending on preference), if available. Not only do you have a (super)maximum for a preempt, Ekren also fails to mentions two of the spades (the boss suit!). In addition you have two aces and a void, three serious demerits for preemptive bidding.
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#10 User is offline   mw64ahw 

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Posted 2021-September-02, 05:42

View PostDavidKok, on 2021-September-02, 04:08, said:

1 is the best bid, but I think pass is much better than an Ekren 2-bid (hearts or diamonds depending on preference), if available. Not only do you have a (super)maximum for a preempt, Ekren also fails to mentions two of the spades (the boss suit!). In addition you have two aces and a void, three serious demerits for preemptive bidding.

I may have been tempted in the past with an 'Ekren 2' , but now exclude the 6card Majors unless a weaker suit i.e. A9xxxx max.. 1 all the way for me now.



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#11 User is online   DavidKok 

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Posted 2021-September-02, 06:26

A9xxxx is a poor suit for a preemptive bid, and even worse if you show it as "4+" along with a second suit. I'd expect other compensating factors (promoting aggression). Lacking those, there's nothing wrong with pass.
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#12 User is offline   mikl_plkcc 

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Posted 2021-September-02, 17:35

View Postmw64ahw, on 2021-September-02, 03:33, said:

It looks like these hands distinguish between standard club players and this forum's participants.
Of the 16 boards none opened 1 and there was a single 2 opener. I guess this reflects my own journey to gaining experience.
Originally I also would have passed with the distribution not meeting the criteria of a traditional weak 2 and the hcp count being too low for 1 (I remember one pair telling me that they occasionally opened with 10hcp).
After gaining an 'Ekren 2" pre-empt I may have opened accordingly, however sitting NS we sat back and waited.
Analysing the evening's boards my bidding simulator opened 1 so I must have been thinking along the correct lines when programming although swapping out a Ten for a Nine a 1 opening would not have been the outcome.
The simulators bidding was a straightforward 1-2 (I prefer nebulous)-2-4 (no messing around looking for long simply because the probabilities for the game were ~82% vs ~74% for . In this case 4 wasn't makeable with a good defence.

Of the 16 boards 2 pairs ended up bidding and making game in with 2 others going down. 3 pairs bid 4 with all going down. Others made part scores in or with the final contracts being 5-4 in favour of



I won't open West not meeting rule of 20 at the 1st seat.

Then, using my system, it will be 1D - 1S - 2NT (18-19) - 4S.
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#13 User is offline   smerriman 

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Posted 2021-September-02, 18:27

View Postmikl_plkcc, on 2021-September-02, 17:35, said:

Then, using my system, it will be 1D - 1S - 2NT (18-19) - 4S.

Are kings worth 4 points in your system? :)
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#14 User is offline   akwoo 

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Posted 2021-September-02, 18:36

I'm opening 1 playing Precision, but I'm not opening 1 playing 2/1. I could imagine an extremely pessimistic auction missing game either way, but unlikely.
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#15 User is offline   Tokyo007 

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Posted 2021-September-18, 09:18

Looking at these in isolation I see:
1S-3N (12-15 HCP, 2344)
4S.

With those Ks responder wants to be pkaying NT if that's the final contract.

1S opening every day of the week.

Job done.
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#16 User is online   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2021-September-18, 09:32

View Postmikl_plkcc, on 2021-September-02, 17:35, said:

I won't open West not meeting rule of 20 at the 1st seat.



A109 and AJ10 are NOT 9 points, they're worth 11-12 at least with this shape, I think K&R has blown a gasket saying 14 but this hand is comfortably rule of 20.
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#17 User is offline   mikeh 

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Posted 2021-September-18, 11:28

View PostCyberyeti, on 2021-September-18, 09:32, said:

A109 and AJ10 are NOT 9 points, they're worth 11-12 at least with this shape, I think K&R has blown a gasket saying 14 but this hand is comfortably rule of 20.

Marty Bergen has a lot to answer for, with the entirely unnecessary and misleading rule of 20. That rule needs adjustments, but one rarely reads of people understanding that need.

Any method that considers Jxxxx Jxxxx KQ K as equivalent to AK1098 K10987 x xx is insane.

Obviously I am posting an extreme example. Most abuses of this rule arenít as glaring as this. However, to use the rule of 20 as an important metric (and some users appear to consider it Ďtheí key metric) requires so many tweaks and adjustments that itís going to be simpler, and more effective, to ignore the rule completely.

Ironically, usually the rule of 20 gets players overbidding but on this one, if it gets anyone passing as west, it is causing underbidding. However, the reason is the sameÖ.opting for a very crude Ďruleí as a substitute for a more nuanced approach.

Anyway, I look at the west hand as having 4 controls (good), a LTC of 7 (good for a suit opening), excellent spots (worth an upgrade if the decision is otherwise close), and no rebid problem.

The only downside is a lack of high card points, but Aces are undervalued at 4 points, Aces are further undervalued in the context of 6 card suits, and combined lower honours/spot cards in long suits are either undervalued or not valued at all in the 4321 method. Iím not interested in assigning a Ďnumberí to this hand. While I am an admirer of both Kaplan and Rubens, I am not a user of numerical valuations beyond using hcp as a starting point for valuation.

So I open. I would not open if I lacked the spade 10. Yes, I know itís a meaningless card for 4H, but thatís how close I consider westís initial decision to be.

If I didnít open 1S, Iíd pass, hating it all the way.
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