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Major Mistake Finding a minor fit

#21 User is online   Winstonm 

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Posted 2021-August-23, 18:22

View PostHardVector, on 2021-August-23, 17:08, said:

I'm ok with the bidding up to 4. Cuebidding is for auctions where you are uncertain where/how high to go. After 4 I think S has enough information to know they want to be in slam. Therefore, they can take control here with 4n. If N shows their void, you are getting to slam regardless, but if they show 2 keys without the Q, then that may cool south's jets.


So why wouldn't you simply bid 5S directly over 4D?
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#22 User is offline   akwoo 

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Posted 2021-August-23, 18:28

I think Kaplan-Sheinwold type systems have an advantage here - 1-1-2 is not a gross underbid (though maybe still an underbid). That gives slightly more chances for South to go conservative and stop at 4.

Maybe South should consider offering 6 as a place to play in most of the auctions I've seen here, since North could be 4=0=6=3. Fishing for the diamond fit certainly seems more reasonable than fishing for the club fit.
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#23 User is offline   HardVector 

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Posted 2021-August-23, 19:52

View PostWinstonm, on 2021-August-23, 18:22, said:

So why wouldn't you simply bid 5S directly over 4D?

What would 5 mean here? The old fashioned ask about trump quality is no longer needed if you are playing some form of keycard. Are you playing straight Blackwood?
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#24 User is online   Winstonm 

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Posted 2021-August-23, 19:56

View PostHardVector, on 2021-August-23, 19:52, said:

What would 5 mean here? The old fashioned ask about trump quality is no longer needed if you are playing some form of keycard. Are you playing straight Blackwood?



No, but I am not aware that keycard exempts the trump ask from use.
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#25 User is offline   DavidKok 

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Posted 2021-August-24, 02:00

View PostWinstonm, on 2021-August-23, 14:48, said:

While that might be true there is no way to let partner in on your doubt. If you try to make up for your perceived underbid you end up in 6S.
Yes, I'm saying that trying to stay out of 6 in a natural system takes some masterminding, in particular underselling opener's hand by an ace or two.

View Postakwoo, on 2021-August-23, 18:28, said:

I think Kaplan-Sheinwold type systems have an advantage here - 1-1-2 is not a gross underbid (though maybe still an underbid). That gives slightly more chances for South to go conservative and stop at 4.
I'm not sure what 2 shows in K-S. I assume it's forcing, if you consider bidding it on this hand?
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#26 User is offline   mycroft 

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Posted 2021-August-24, 09:39

K/S, "15-17 playing points in support of spades". 3 would be 18-19. Not sure which I would like, but I wouldn't want to 4 against Kxxx xxx xx Qxxx, so it will have to be one of the passable ones.
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#27 User is offline   DavidKok 

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Posted 2021-August-25, 03:27

Being able to show 18-19 NF seems fine to me, quite descriptive. Though personally I wouldn't want such a bid in my system, but if it exists in the context of K/S that's close to the money.
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#28 User is offline   mikl_plkcc 

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Posted 2021-August-26, 15:07

What's wrong with the contract? Isn't 6 75% chance of making depending on the position of K and Q (it fails only when both are offside, or a 5-0 trump break)

Nevertheless, in my system it will
1 - 1
3 - 4 (I cue first before second)
5 - 5 (missing control)
5NT (I f**king have all first round and only 1 missing 2nd round control - please bid grand slam if you have good trumps) - 6
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#29 User is online   Winstonm 

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Posted 2021-August-26, 15:11

View Postmikl_plkcc, on 2021-August-26, 15:07, said:

What's wrong with the contract? Isn't 6 75% chance of making depending on the position of K and Q (it fails only when both are offside, or a 5-0 trump break)

Nevertheless, in my system it will
1 - 1
3 - 4 (I cue first before second)
5 - 5 (missing control)
5NT (I f**king have all first round and only 1 missing 2nd round control - please bid grand slam if you have good trumps) - 6


You are neglecting the spade 9. The opponents hold it.
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#30 User is offline   mikl_plkcc 

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Posted 2021-August-26, 16:13

View PostWinstonm, on 2021-August-26, 15:11, said:

You are neglecting the spade 9. The opponents hold it.

Is there even a method which can be used to find out if we hold the 10s and 9s?! And how can we even know if 10s or 9s are crucial in making slams?! If one of the small trump is replaced with a 9 then it is a good slam!

If we always need to make sure that 10s or 9s are held before bidding a slam with 8-card fit than nearly no slams of 8-card fit can be bid!
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#31 User is online   Winstonm 

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Posted 2021-August-26, 17:34

View Postmikl_plkcc, on 2021-August-26, 16:13, said:

Is there even a method which can be used to find out if we hold the 10s and 9s?! And how can we even know if 10s or 9s are crucial in making slams?! If one of the small trump is replaced with a 9 then it is a good slam!

If we always need to make sure that 10s or 9s are held before bidding a slam with 8-card fit than nearly no slams of 8-card fit can be bid!


I was just trying to let you know that in your calculations you neglected the missing 9- spot.
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#32 User is offline   DavidKok 

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Posted 2021-August-27, 05:20

View Postmikl_plkcc, on 2021-August-26, 16:13, said:

Is there even a method which can be used to find out if we hold the 10s and 9s?! And how can we even know if 10s or 9s are crucial in making slams?! If one of the small trump is replaced with a 9 then it is a good slam!

If we always need to make sure that 10s or 9s are held before bidding a slam with 8-card fit than nearly no slams of 8-card fit can be bid!
The goal of bidding is to get to good contracts, not to explain why you couldn't possibly have accounted for a missing spot card. In this particular case the king, queen or nine of trumps (in addition to the other picture cards) makes the contract very good, and there are methods to find some of these. Zeroing in on the missing nine (and present ten) is a great legal defence but may not score well at the table. I guess it depends on priorities.
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#33 User is offline   Lovera 

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Posted 2021-September-24, 08:54

I do not understand why to insist on Spades when it is seen that it does not lead to a slam. Moreover, the answer does not seem to be adequate because the jump support requires a score of 18-19 points and therefore it would be possible to choose 2 Spades (both from S and N the suit is poor). Instead it was not found that the answering hand is strong having 16 points in high cards and with surpluses at and easily reaches 19 points so as to take into account the jump bid of 3 (=SJS). The partner, preferring to be investiged can cue-bidding 4 and then 4NT, 5NT-7 are easy to reach.
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#34 User is offline   Gilithin 

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Posted 2021-September-24, 10:23

View PostHardVector, on 2021-August-23, 19:52, said:

What would 5 mean here? The old fashioned ask about trump quality is no longer needed if you are playing some form of keycard. Are you playing straight Blackwood?

If 4 is not Last Train, which appears to be the case here, the jump to 5 is often used to say "please bid slam if you have a control". If 4 is LTTC, it is much more difficult to find a good use for the call so a trump quality ask makes about as much sense as anything.
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#35 User is online   Winstonm 

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Posted 2021-September-24, 12:06

View PostHardVector, on 2021-August-23, 19:52, said:

What would 5 mean here? The old fashioned ask about trump quality is no longer needed if you are playing some form of keycard. Are you playing straight Blackwood?


Btw, this is not correct - the combined hands can hold 4 controls off the K and Q of trumps and be a terrible slam or hold 4 controls with the KQ of trumps and be a laydown slam and there is no way to know which it is. The old fashioned bid specifies trump holding.
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#36 User is online   Winstonm 

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Posted 2021-September-24, 12:13

View PostLovera, on 2021-September-24, 08:54, said:

I do not understand why to insist on Spades when it is seen that it does not lead to a slam. Moreover, the answer does not seem to be adequate because the jump support requires a score of 18-19 points and therefore it would be possible to choose 2 Spades (both from S and N the suit is poor). Instead it was not found that the answering hand is strong having 16 points in high cards and with surpluses at and easily reaches 19 points so as to take into account the jump bid of 3 (=SJS). The partner, preferring to be investiged can cue-bidding 4 and then 4NT, 5NT-7 are easy to reach.


I would be highly impressed if you reached 7C. And well done.
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#37 User is offline   johnu 

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Posted 2021-September-24, 14:04

View PostWinstonm, on 2021-September-24, 12:13, said:

I would be highly impressed if you reached 7C. And well done.


Most players bid much better when they can see both hands. Some would say they bid double dummy. :lol:
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#38 User is offline   Lovera 

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Posted 2021-September-24, 16:56

View Postjohnu, on 2021-September-24, 14:04, said:

Most players bid much better when they can see both hands. Some would say they bid double dummy. :lol:


I once said that the sight of the two hands can orient in the sense of facilitating the resolution of a bidding problem only that afterwards one has to start again to see how to use the information obtained from the examination of the two hands compatibly with the bid at the table, i.e. which it would be a likely bid without seeing the two hands. Here the search for a different bid from that of the suit of combined with the HCP and the fact that opener has bid then leads to the jump bid (re-evaluating ). So does the opener who has a hand between two ranges and a support to with four cards to Ace.
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#39 User is offline   Lovera 

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Posted 2021-September-25, 02:25

View PostDavidKok, on 2021-August-27, 05:20, said:

The goal of bidding is to get to good contracts, not to explain why you couldn't possibly have accounted for a missing spot card. In this particular case the king, queen or nine of trumps (in addition to the other picture cards) makes the contract very good, and there are methods to find some of these. Zeroing in on the missing nine (and present ten) is a great legal defence but may not score well at the table. I guess it depends on priorities.


I also agree with this because it was what I was saying when I talked about the surplus in and . It all begins when opener bids 1 because this means that the Queen in S has +1 surplus. Then the situation of the suit of leads, in a plastic or more optimistic view, to consider 9 as 10 which would involve +2 surplus again to have 4 honors in a suit and this remains valid even between the two hands in the probable hypothesis whether the partner has the Ace or the 10. You can see that this same situation occurs in the opener's hand for the suit of (+2) which moves the points towards the top of the range. Obviously these calculations must already be foreseen in the system regarding the evaluation of the hand.
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#40 User is offline   Douglas43 

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Posted 2021-September-30, 02:19

I would probably bid: 1 - 1 - 3 - 4 - 4 - 4NT - 5 - 5. Think RKCB is justified on South hand once North has confirmed a diamond control, and not sure 4 really added much?

Avoids the hopeless spade slam and usually makes. Misses the excellent club slam though. Posted Image
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