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Major Mistake Finding a minor fit

#1 User is online   Winstonm 

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Posted 2021-August-22, 22:05

Where did this go off the rails? How do you bid?






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#2 User is offline   mikeh 

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Posted 2021-August-22, 23:28

I don’t know what you are complaining about. In a typical, reasonable mp field I’d expect a lot of spade contracts…the key to average+ probably requiring stopping at 5S (indeed, 4S is better, lol)

Few pairs are able to get out of a major suit fit, and even fewer into a suit neither partner even suggested as trump until the 6 level.

Even my old relay method would struggle. After 1D 2C (artificial gf relay) North would be able to show 4054 with 5 controls, and eventually deny the K/Q of spades.

I can’t recall the method precisely…I’d have to dig out the notes from 1999😀

I think we’d be able to ask about jacks, and I think North could show all three below 7C, but I’m not certain.

Absent something esoteric such as a good relay method, I’d be delighted to reach 6C after responding 1S


There is a school of thought that suggests that with gf values and 4=4 blacks, one can respond 2C….to avoid 1D 1S 2D….now what? 3C is forcing but may be not a real suit.

After 1D 2C 3H, it is possible that some enterprising pairs will find 7C, by never knowing of the 4=4 spades
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#3 User is offline   mw64ahw 

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Posted 2021-August-23, 01:28

As South I would have bid 3NT over 3 to deny 2 of the top 3 honours ('non-serious NT?') given South bid s first. This would have helped to keep out of 6.

My unbalanced gets to 6:
1 - 1 GF (says nothing about s)
2 (4441/5m440) - 3 SI (4+ & 4+)
4 Set trumps (based on KCs> KCs)-4 (3 KCs with ctrl)
4NT ( ctrl denies ctrl i.e. not the short suit/K in retrospect looking for the grand) - 5 (nothing more to say)
5 (all KCs w/o Q) - 6 (denies any further Kings/Q)

P.S. 5NT instead of 6 can be used to show Q which could entice North to 7
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#4 User is offline   nullve 

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Posted 2021-August-23, 01:41

nullve(N)-nullve(S):

1(1)-1(2)
2(3)-2N(4)
3N(5)-4(6)
4(7)-4N(8)
5(9)-5N(10)
6N(11)-7(12)
P

(1) "10+, NATish unBAL" or "11-13/17-19/23+ BAL"
(2) "0+, 4+ S"
(3) "13-15, 4+ S, unBAL" or "11-16, 6+C5R"
(4) GF relay
(5) 13-15, 4054
(6) Parity Key Card Blackwood in C
(7) even # of key cards
(8) K ask
(9) K, no K
(10) J ask
(11) J, J, T, T, no 9
(12) contract
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#5 User is offline   nige1 

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Posted 2021-August-23, 06:34

Winstonm 'Where did this go off the rails? How do you bid?
+++++++++++++++++
After 1-1, a 3 mini-splinter could give us a chance :)
E.g. with a later jump to 6
But I'm afraid I would still fail :(

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#6 User is offline   pescetom 

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Posted 2021-August-23, 06:39

With us it might go:
1 1; 3 3N; 4
which is already safe ground.

If South is really awake he should be thinking about 6 at this point, but I won't risk mikeh's incredulity further :)
More likely if 3 is guaranteed to be a void.
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#7 User is online   Winstonm 

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Posted 2021-August-23, 08:21

Part of the problem (for which I have no answer) is the original 3S bid by north. I can't fault it but it is also somewhat misleading in its strength. I agree that a serious/non- serious NT understanding of weak trumps would be useful.
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#8 User is offline   DavidKok 

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Posted 2021-August-23, 08:30

1-1;
4 (splinter) - 4NT (RKC Blackwood 1430);
5NT (even number of keycards with a void)-6.

I'm not getting to a better contract. Although if you want some double dummy auction I'm happy to invent one.
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#9 User is online   Winstonm 

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Posted 2021-August-23, 09:08

View PostDavidKok, on 2021-August-23, 08:30, said:

1-1;
4 (splinter) - 4NT (RKC Blackwood 1430);
5NT (even number of keycards with a void)-6.

I'm not getting to a better contract. Although if you want some double dummy auction I'm happy to invent one.


No, although I do see merit in the serious/non-serious slam tries homing in on the trump suit. As is everything, the question is the trade-off and is it worth not being able to express other types of slam tries.


Some of the problem may be from south - the 3S bid is (IMO) an attempt to reach game. Perhaps south should be more cautious with such a middling suit?

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#10 User is offline   LBengtsson 

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Posted 2021-August-23, 09:17

accidents in bidding do happen :( I do not think it is a "major mistake", more a difficulty of finding a fit in a minor suit after agreeing a fit in a major suit. 6 is not a disaster as there are combinations of cards within 3-2 distribution, even some 4-1 where 6 will make depending on place of9 and place of K+Q. (pin the 9 looking a possible line)

I like nige1 3 mini-splinter bid but the difficultly with that is whether it says stiff or void?? souths hand opposite void loses some of the value of the A imo. but it is still difficult to stop 6 bid or arrive in better contract.
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#11 User is offline   pescetom 

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Posted 2021-August-23, 09:49

View PostLBengtsson, on 2021-August-23, 09:17, said:

I like nige1 3 mini-splinter bid but the difficultly with that is whether it says stiff or void?? souths hand opposite void loses some of the value of the A imo. but it is still difficult to stop 6 bid or arrive in better contract.

South's hand opposite void gains the near certainty of a clubs fit, but as you say he needs to be certain it is a void.
The real problem I think is for South to spot the clubs opportunity at all, once spades are set as trumps.
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#12 User is online   Winstonm 

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Posted 2021-August-23, 09:54

View Postpescetom, on 2021-August-23, 09:49, said:

South's hand opposite void gains the near certainty of a clubs fit, but as you say he needs to be certain it is a void.
The real problem I think is for South to spot the clubs opportunity at all, once spades are set as trumps.


I think "near certainty" of a club fit is an overbid. Posted Image The big issue on this hand is the failure to stop below slam with the trump suit as poor as it is. Reaching any club slam is a mystery to anyone playing something other than some type of relay system or other specialized sequences.

For us mortals, it seems impossible. Posted Image

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#13 User is offline   mikeh 

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Posted 2021-August-23, 09:54

View PostWinstonm, on 2021-August-23, 08:21, said:

Part of the problem (for which I have no answer) is the original 3S bid by north. I can't fault it but it is also somewhat misleading in its strength. I agree that a serious/non- serious NT understanding of weak trumps would be useful.

Using serious or frivolous 3N to show or ask specifically about trump honours seems to me to be a terrible idea. One has various degrees of slam interest based on far more factors than the trump holding we, as the interested party, hold. By limiting the 3N (or equivalent) calls to just the trump suit severely limits the utility of this method, all the more so since, once both sides evince slam interest, there is keycard to solve the trump question most of the time.
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#14 User is offline   mw64ahw 

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Posted 2021-August-23, 10:20

View Postmikeh, on 2021-August-23, 09:54, said:

Using serious or frivolous 3N to show or ask specifically about trump honours seems to me to be a terrible idea. One has various degrees of slam interest based on far more factors than the trump holding we, as the interested party, hold. By limiting the 3N (or equivalent) calls to just the trump suit severely limits the utility of this method, all the more so since, once both sides evince slam interest, there is keycard to solve the trump question most of the time.


I've never really worked out what these other factors are; given bidding sequences that aim to define strength and distribution prior to the slam invite. I also find it useful to be able to stop in 4 rather than 5 of a major.

I originally came across the concept of using 3NT to deny trump honours in some article on expert Italian cue-bidding and have yet to experience hands where a more wide ranging serious/frivolous NT or Last Train provides any additional advantage. I would welcome examples, but I guess they are more associated with standard bidding approaches.



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#15 User is offline   DavidKok 

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Posted 2021-August-23, 10:31

Most natural bidding systems have lots of sequences where you are at the 3-level, have found a trump fit, are pushing to at least game but don't have enough extras to look for a slam on your own. If both players are in this situation a solid slam can be missed. This is why having 'non-serious slam tries' can be very valuable. Of course there are many different methods to establish and incorporate all of this, but using an artificial 3NT bid has the advantage of not creating ambiguity about controls.
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#16 User is online   Winstonm 

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Posted 2021-August-23, 11:25

View Postmikeh, on 2021-August-23, 09:54, said:

Using serious or frivolous 3N to show or ask specifically about trump honours seems to me to be a terrible idea. One has various degrees of slam interest based on far more factors than the trump holding we, as the interested party, hold. By limiting the 3N (or equivalent) calls to just the trump suit severely limits the utility of this method, all the more so since, once both sides evince slam interest, there is keycard to solve the trump question most of the time.


The auction problem I think can be traced to a single failed bid: 4S.

1D-1S
3S-4C
4D-4H
4S*

*This, I think, is the key. 4S in this sequence should show doubt about moving past game - a good reason for that is a question as to trumps.
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#17 User is offline   DavidKok 

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Posted 2021-August-23, 13:07

I think a NF 3 is underbidding that hand, and showing extra doubt after having only given an invitational raise equally so.
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#18 User is online   Winstonm 

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Posted 2021-August-23, 14:48

View PostDavidKok, on 2021-August-23, 13:07, said:

I think a NF 3 is underbidding that hand, and showing extra doubt after having only given an invitational raise equally so.


While that might be true there is no way to let partner in on your doubt. If you try to make up for your perceived underbid you end up in 6S.
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#19 User is offline   pescetom 

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Posted 2021-August-23, 14:57

View Postmw64ahw, on 2021-August-23, 10:20, said:

I've never really worked out what these other factors are; given bidding sequences that aim to define strength and distribution prior to the slam invite. I also find it useful to be able to stop in 4 rather than 5 of a major.

I originally came across the concept of using 3NT to deny trump honours in some article on expert Italian cue-bidding and have yet to experience hands where a more wide ranging serious/frivolous NT or Last Train provides any additional advantage. I would welcome examples, but I guess they are more associated with standard bidding approaches.



I hope that article wasn't me :) But FWIW I agree. I was never really comfortable with using non-serious to indicate generic doubt about trumps / extras / shape / whatever. Once we bit the bullet and switched to explicit doubt about trump honours it suddenly started paying its weight, giving useful information that can keep us out of slam investigation at a safe level.
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#20 User is offline   HardVector 

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Posted 2021-August-23, 17:08

I'm ok with the bidding up to 4. Cuebidding is for auctions where you are uncertain where/how high to go. After 4 I think S has enough information to know they want to be in slam. Therefore, they can take control here with 4n. If N shows their void, you are getting to slam regardless, but if they show 2 keys without the Q, then that may cool south's jets.
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